Took the bio=balls out of my wet/dry ages ago. I know use the space to put any LR that has or seems to like hair algae. Flushes everything off/in the rock really well.

 

Took the bio=balls out of my wet/dry ages ago. I know use the space to put any LR that has or seems to like hair algae. Flushes everything off/in the rock really well.

But, why did you remove the bio-balls? What were the issues that led you to remove them?

 

What the heck. I'll give it a try.

Wet/dry filters are great at processing massive amounts of water in a relatively small area. This works well for FO tanks where swimming room is the priority. They also work well for LFS's where space is limited, and the animals need to be displayed in empty clean compartments.
The down side to wet/dry filters is that the nitrogen cycle stops at nitrate. Nitrate can build up rapidly, and to very high levels, in very short time, if nothing is done to keep it under control.
Live rock works well at processing nitrogen all the way through to gas that is able to escape the system.
The down side to LR is that it requires a great deal of space to perform the nitrogen cycle. It also has the potential to trap decomposing matter/detritus which can increase nutrients in the water and fuel nasty algae blooms.

 

What the heck. I'll give it a try.

Wet/dry filters are great at processing massive amounts of water in a relatively small area. This works well for FO tanks where swimming room is the priority. They also work well for LFS's where space is limited, and the animals need to be displayed in empty clean compartments.
The down side to wet/dry filters is that the nitrogen cycle stops at nitrate. Nitrate can build up rapidly, and to very high levels, in very short time, if nothing is done to keep it under control.
Live rock works well at processing nitrogen all the way through to gas that is able to escape the system.
The down side to LR is that it requires a great deal of space to perform the nitrogen cycle. It also has the potential to trap decomposing matter/detritus which can increase nutrients in the water and fuel nasty algae blooms.

Well said!

 

I don't use bio balls for biological filtration, only live rock. I took out the bio balls because they would get dirty and being difficult to clean, wouldn't get cleaned. At that point dirty bio-balls are only adding to the bio-load. Now instead of bio-balls I use floss because it's easy to clean every couple of days. By cleaning out the floss I'm removing excess organics and lightening the bio-load on the system, so less nitrate is procuced, period. It's then easier for the live rock to keep the nitrate down.

 

well said Darrel,

question on the bio balls.

What makes this process stop?
is there a cure for this?

David,
are you running a skimmer with your system?

 

Randy,
are you thinking of a coral system or a Fish only type system for the use of Bio balls and or the Wet dry system?

 

Randy,
are you thinking of a coral system or a Fish only type system for the use of Bio balls and or the Wet dry system?

Mainly a coral system since that is the system that seems to be the most bio-ball unfriendly set up.

You beat me to my other questions though about what makes the bio-balls so inefficient (or rather, what makes people think they are inefficient).

 

The 50 gallon I just brought home and set up has everything built in the back and included a boat load of bio-balls that I immediately removed. Right now I put a nice ball of Chaeto in that section that is getting tumbled by the current. It was hard enough removing the bio-balls when the tank was dry and on the floor, I could not imagine trying to remove them later on down the road if/when a problem arose because of them.

This is now the seahorse tank, and it has planty of rock and open spaces that should handle all of the biological filtration just fine.

 

The 50 gallon I just brought home and set up has everything built in the back and included a boat load of bio-balls that I immediately removed. Right now I put a nice ball of Chaeto in that section that is getting tumbled by the current. It was hard enough removing the bio-balls when the tank was dry and on the floor, I could not imagine trying to remove them later on down the road if/when a problem arose because of them.

This is now the seahorse tank, and it has planty of rock and open spaces that should handle all of the biological filtration just fine.

But, why did you remove them? What reason prompted you to remove them?

And, what potential problems can arise from using Live Rock that don't arise when using bio-balls (there are at least 2 unique differences between the two filtration mediums).

 

David, are there less nitrates being produced, or, are there less nitrates being exported from the system, thereby making it look as if there are nitrates being produced?

 

I think that there's a limited amount of nitrates a given system can export biologically due to the specific anaerobic requirement of the nitrate reducing bacteria. Anaerobic conditions exist only in the deep regions of the rock and sand bed. So logically if uneaten food and waste are removed mechanically by sock/floss or skimmer before the bacteria break them down into nitrate the system will have a better chance of keeping up. Rapid chaeto growth further aids nitrate removal without relying on the limited anaerobic nitrate removing bacteria. And to answer Tim's question I do run a honkin' skimmer! And to answer your question Randy; both. I think replacing bio-balls with easier to clean floss help to keep nitrate production down and as a result help the system to maintain lower nitrate levels.

 

David touched on the major issue with bio-balls in the lack of anaerobic conditions with bio-balls. It is why they become "nitrate factories" (there are some other reasons but that is the biggest).

What are some of the issues with Live Rock?

 

I removed them for the very reason that there was no way I would ever be able to thoroughly clean them. Any food particles and other nasties that went through the overflow and got caught up in the bio balls would remain there until it totally rotted away. Nothing would ever get back there to eat it.

Live rock can also have issues. If you let the detritus build up on it then the bacteria has a harder time doing its job. Also, if you have it touching the sand bed it can wick phosphates out of the sand and help more nuisance algae grow. You need to keep flow on the rocks in order to prevent as much detritus as possible from settling there.

 

I removed them for the very reason that there was no way I would ever be able to thoroughly clean them. Any food particles and other nasties that went through the overflow and got caught up in the bio balls would remain there until it totally rotted away. Nothing would ever get back there to eat it.

So it was a maintenance issue and not a deficiency in the ability of the bio balls that caused you to remove them?

Live rock can also have issues. If you let the detritus build up on it then the bacteria has a harder time doing its job. Also, if you have it touching the sand bed it can wick phosphates out of the sand and help more nuisance algae grow. You need to keep flow on the rocks in order to prevent as much detritus as possible from settling there.

There is one more issue with rocks and algae

 

but the algae issue is often times an easy fix.

 

Really? What is the "easy fix" to algae when it comes to LR? I am curious to know

 

randy,
as you know,
often when various types of algae start to grow with in our systems.( we all know that it is always present and our system can not live with out it).
But more of when the bloom and or goes sexual that maint. ( water change), skimmer not working properly or even amount and type of food given can lead to it. adjusting , fixing or keeping up will keep things in check.
once the bloom has taken hold and is running crazy that is a but different. remember we are only talking about algae not bacteria.. that on the other hand is a totally new basket...

 

randy,
as you know,
often when various types of algae start to grow with in our systems.( we all know that it is always present and our system can not live with out it).
But more of when the bloom and or goes sexual that maint. ( water change), skimmer not working properly or even amount and type of food given can lead to it. adjusting , fixing or keeping up will keep things in check.
once the bloom has taken hold and is running crazy that is a but different. remember we are only talking about algae not bacteria.. that on the other hand is a totally new basket...

The issue I was getting at (or trying to) was that when LR gets covered in Coralline Algae (among other types as well but mostly coralline) then the rock loses its greatest benefit to the process. And that is the anaerobic zone that exists within the rock and that is what makes it such a good biological filtration media.

Ever heard of anybody cooking bio balls though?

The major issue with bio-balls is the lack of the anaerobic zone that exists in a LR scenario. Can you guess what the conditions are in a RDSB?

Both media have good and bad associated with them. Now, I am off to read the rest of the posts in this thread

 

It seems that no matter how much flow you have in a reef tank, detritus can settle in the spaces between rocks, cracks, ect, and fuel algae growth as it sits and rots. I believe in using a ph or turkey baster to clean off the rocks when doing a water change.

 

Yes, and this is a good time to break out that old canister filter, they are great for helping rid the water of all that suspended detritous, they are only a problem if lift on the tank continually, detritous trapped in the filter element breaks down and feeds the Nitrogen cycle resulting in high nitrates. If the filter is removed they can , in effect act as a closed loop adding circulation, tho IME not enough to be of much use on anything bigger than say a 29g

 

that is a great way to help keep things in the water to be filtered out.

 

some light reading for the late nighters or sleepless!

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f...rums/f77/ways-to-make-dsbs-work-and-why-many-dont-107650.html?highlight=sandbed

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f.../f77/some-funny-misconceptions-ive-read-about-dsbs-23293.html?highlight=sandbed

 

some light reading for the late nighters or sleepless!

What was it that gave away me being a late nighter? Was it the timestamp on my posts very seldom being during the day, or my midnight morning thread or me saying I am usually up late at night?

10 threads? :arg: I will have to figure out what to do with the other 4 hours of my night tonight

Thanks for the links and I will read them tonight. The RDSB is the one that I was looking for the most (for other reasons).

 

hehehehehe

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f...forums/f77/interesting-new-work-in-nitrogen-cycles-92107.html?highlight=sandbed

 

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f...m/forums/f77/dynamics-of-marine-sediments-your-dsb-75692.html?highlight=sandbed

randy!

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f...ms/f77/for-those-wondering-about-nitrate-reduction-64293.html?highlight=sandbed

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f...com/forums/f77/denitrification-how-it-really-works-44798.html?highlight=sandbed

remote sand beds

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f77/using-a-remote-dsb-as-a-sink-40740.html?highlight=sandbed

 

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f77/dont-touch-that-dsb-31769.html?highlight=sandbed

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f41/dsb-vs-settling-tank-22462.html

 

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f41/remote-dsbs-19987.html

 

Wow Tim, I thought you said some light reading. :lol:

 

Wow Tim, I thought you said some light reading. :lol:

i do have a few more some where else too..

 

:lol::lol: LMAO doug!

 

Dude!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tom and I as well as a few others go back to EB online coral Bio class we all struggled to grasp basics Tom called Eric out on more points of fact than I can recall, and given his profession, if you quote Chem, Be Right

 

very very true

 

OK, back on track. I haven't read all those threads (I went to bed early last night), so, if the answers are in there, you will just have to post them again tim Want to see what people on here now think about it

There are still some other negatives to Live Rock. What are they?

Is size an issue?
Is maintenance a potential issue? (Ever heard of anybody "cooking" bio-balls?)

What are the issues that you will face if you choose to use LR as the media for your biological filtration? And, what are some the solutions to those issues?

Same with bio-balls and there are solutions to both.

 

There are still some other negatives to Live Rock. What are they?

Is size an issue?
Is maintenance a potential issue? (Ever heard of anybody "cooking" bio-balls?)

What are the issues that you will face if you choose to use LR as the media for your biological filtration? And, what are some the solutions to those issues?

Same with bio-balls and there are solutions to both.

Size with Live rock is not a real problem, you can easily cut them to what ever you want. including drilling holes to place frag plugs.

Is maintenance a potential issue? (Ever heard of anybody "cooking" bio-balls?)

hehe funny you should say it that way...often times when members talk about having Bio balls in their system and trying to make them work fully, often completly cover them in water to get them to work "like" live rock, then remove them after a week or two and do a complete cleaning of them.. this would be the cooking....

 

This thread, and the link in it, is the foundation for the basis of my RDSB idea:

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f...dsb-and-refugium-design-idea-107445.html?highlight=Remote+Deep+Sand+Bed+tdwyatt

 

I remember that thread. I can't believe I let Geoff off that easy.:funny:

I have some questions. Why do you need to clean bioballs? I used bioballs for many years and never cleaned them. Wouldn't cleaning bioballs kill the bacteria on them throwing the system into a nitrogen cycle? When bioballs came out, they did away with the old crappy rotating spray bar that was used with the old DLS material in trickle filters, and went with a drip tray. The drip tray is a great place for mechanical filtration just prior to the bioballs. I simply used those green scrubbing pads, and the bioballs stayed clean.

Why is cooking LR viewed as a necessary evil? Why plan on cooking LR a few years after the system has been up and running? Wouldn't it be much easier, and healthier for the inhabitants, if the system was ran so that the rocks never needed to be removed and cooked?

 

Interesting discussion - I'm in the cause they said so camp - when I was setting my tanks up I was told by the LFS, Tank Manufacturer and TRT Bio balls are bad take them out and only use LR to filter.


I guess if Bio Balls and LR worked the same I'd still prefer LR because it's much more interesting and I enjoy most of the hitchhikers that come with it

 

Interesting discussion - I'm in the cause they said so camp - when I was setting my tanks up I was told by the LFS, Tank Manufacturer and TRT Bio balls are bad take them out and only use LR to filter.

I guess if Bio Balls and LR worked the same I'd still prefer LR because it's much more interesting and I enjoy most of the hitchhikers that come with it

One more reason: "Cause they said so"