[JennM]

Well I *am* a reef store owner who is responsible and ethical. If you want to get into a discussion about ethics and responsibilities, I invite you to start a new thread and share what you know about cyanide fishing... this isn't the thread for that debate.

Please understand - there are many ways to accomplish things in this hobby, I'm not asserting that I am right and everyone else is wrong - I am simply reiterating my opinion, which you seem to want to argue with and counter, just because.

I have no quarrel with you, or with API - I don't endorse their products, I don't carry them. Rather, I carry products which I consider to be of higher quality and better value. Nothing more, nothing less. Locals who want to buy API, do so, elsewhere. I'm not going to turn this thread into a plug thread either - I simply chimed in because Heather wanted some input on good products to carry and she had already indicated that the store she works in carries API. I simply offered up some other types and brands of products and for whatever reason you took exception to that and have been all over me like white on rice, ever since. You haven't found fault in others' suggestions - so why the personal beef? Prior to this thread, I don't even think we've exchanged ideas before on this forum.

I have a thick skin so I'm not taking offence to any of this, I just wonder why you're so adament...

And I apologize Heather, for deviating once again from the thread topic.

Jenn

 

[Fly Guy]

I dont understand why there is so much argument here either.

Nothing personal intended at all......but point blank- API sucks, and red sea berlin airlift skimmers suck. And neither should ever be recommended to anyone who wants to do well in this hobby.

Anyone who has any experience in this hobby, with any tests or equipment other than them knows both of those things firsthand as FACT.

 

[JennM]

I dont understand why there is so much argument here either.

Nothing personal intended at all......but point blank- API sucks, and red sea berlin airlift skimmers suck. And neither should ever be recommended to anyone who wants to do well in this hobby.

Anyone who has any experience in this hobby, with any tests or equipment other than them knows both of those things firsthand as FACT.

Heh well you're a little more blunt than I am but I won't disagree with that statement. However, Red Sea does have some decent higher-end products - wave timers, ozone generators and CO2 systems for freshwater. I wouldn't paint their whole product line with one brush, but I wouldn't endorse their whole product line either. I don't carry any of their supplements. I stick with Kent and Seachem - Kent *was* a local company for us before they were gobbled up by Central Garden and Pet, and Seachem is still a local company. Mind you, I used their products as a hobbyist many many years ago when I was a noob back in Canada, so it's not just the "local factor" - I believe in their products.

API - well - the only product of theirs I carry is freshwater aquarium salt - too many people recognize the cartoon fish on the "milk carton" container.. I sell about 2 of those every 6 months. I also carry Seachem's version but it's likely very similar and yes, more expensive.

I've had no good experiences with Red Sea skimmers of every description. Many come to us with used setups with these and we find them difficult to dial in. I much prefer Euroreef or even Kent skimmers. I'm "currently" (pardon the pun) playing with a Current USA Fission 225 skimmer and it's pulling some nasty crap out of my smaller coral system, so thusfar it's getting a thumbsup from me.

The bottom line is, in my experience, every product line seems to have good products and not so good products. I've played and experimented with a lot of different products over the years, supplements, foods, hardware... what I carry and what I recommend is based on that, and I think that's more or less what type of feedback Heather was looking for when she started this thread, and she's had a lot of good feedback in between the peeing match

Heather, I hope your GM takes your suggestions and ideas to heart - it will be a good thing for your store, the others in the group of stores, your customers, and especially for the livestock

Jenn

 

[skeety]

I would add Stress Coat to mine/your list.

I guess I would simply ask....What is the purpose and advantages of using Stress coat?

I have no opinion one way or the other. I just see you being adamant about the product, and I'm just curious what your reasoning is.

Other than that Dr. recommending it. Why do YOU use it?

 

[Bubbashrimp]

Perhaps, if people understood the mortality rate of cuttlefish they might understand a bit better. Cuttlefish on average have about a 10% survival rate, YES I SAID 10%, thats conservative. That means for every cuttlefish that you see in aquaria 9 DIED trying to be that one. If we are to keep taking from the reefs without giving back, I say take all the precautions that are nessesary. Put yourself in the animals "shoes" if you will, what obstecles did it go through just so the aquarist can see a pretty cuttle or shrimp or fish or invert. I understand JennM concern about overdosing or even overusing and I am on her side as far as that is concerned, but to bash a product that has been suggested by a researcher to help is crazy. If you read the quote carefully he does not even say to use Stress Coat over another product. I use it when something is going wrong such as one fish injuring another and stabalizing the ph etc. I do not just blindly dump it in my tank like some of her old customers did at her old pet store. Besides what is wrong with a doctor recommending a product, in this case he recommended a product similar to stress coat or stress coat, I can see when the doctor might have a conflict of interest, but that does not seem to be the case. When you go to the doctor they recommend medicine and you have a choice brand name or generic, in any case they still recommend the medicine.

I contemplated about whether or not I should even write a response to this for fear of opening this particular can of worms again. Although, I do what to clarify my position on stress coat, which is why I am writing this, I do not want to do it hurting someones feelings or have them think that I am singleing them out.

 

[Doug1]

I am having a hard time figuring out where you are going with this, Cuttlefish mortality has no bearing on the discussion at hand, and quite honestly I think most people that have kept cuttlefish are probably well past asking advice on a reef forum.
If stress Coat is so critical to cuttlefish survival , fine by all means use it. Ice Bear asked for some ideas of products that perform well for the money, and several people have given their OPINION, and discussed their choice at length. Ireally don't see why the thread has to keep getting off track. there are several side issues at play here that would definatly do best in their own thread so they could be debated on their own merits, but so far I see a lot of thread clutter in Heathers question thread, lighten up

Perhaps, if people understood the mortality rate of cuttlefish they might understand a bit better. Cuttlefish on average have about a 10% survival rate, YES I SAID 10%, thats conservative. That means for every cuttlefish that you see in aquaria 9 DIED trying to be that one. If we are to keep taking from the reefs without giving back, I say take all the precautions that are nessesary. Put yourself in the animals "shoes" if you will, what obstecles did it go through just so the aquarist can see a pretty cuttle or shrimp or fish or invert. I understand JennM concern about overdosing or even overusing and I am on her side as far as that is concerned, but to bash a product that has been suggested by a researcher to help is crazy. If you read the quote carefully he does not even say to use Stress Coat over another product. I use it when something is going wrong such as one fish injuring another and stabalizing the ph etc. I do not just blindly dump it in my tank like some of her old customers did at her old pet store. Besides what is wrong with a doctor recommending a product, in this case he recommended a product similar to stress coat or stress coat, I can see when the doctor might have a conflict of interest, but that does not seem to be the case. When you go to the doctor they recommend medicine and you have a choice brand name or generic, in any case they still recommend the medicine.

I contemplated about whether or not I should even write a response to this for fear of opening this particular can of worms again. Although, I do what to clarify my position on stress coat, which is why I am writing this, I do not want to do it hurting someones feelings or have them think that I am singleing them out.

 

[Bubbashrimp]

How come one moderator is asking an opinion while another moderator is telling me to lighten up

where are you going with this?

 

[Twitterbait]

Lets all chill please. Bubba, please take your question offline via PM with doug and lets get back to the original request in the thread.

 

[JennM]

I guess I'll just go back to answering questions from my "old pet store"

I don't know what cuttlefish mortality has to do with any of this either... and I'd BET that their mortality has everything in the world to do with the fragility of the animal itself and it's poor suitability for transport and even captive life under even the best of circumstances. I daresay that Stress Coat wasn't the key factor in the 10% that made it - but that's another post.

I've only ever seen cuttles on a stock list ONCE... And none of my "old customers" have expressed interest in keeping them. I get the odd inquiry about octupus, but that's usually from not-yet-hobbyists (they aren't hobbyists "yet") and that's what they want to start with (!!!!)... I don't carry cephlopods, and once I've steered a would-be-hobbyist to where he or she should begin their research before they obtain such a creature, that's usually where it ends. Nobody has EVER returned, having educated themselves, to buy the right equipment, set up and cycle a tank, for me to order an octo or a cuttle or whatnot for them. There are a few cuttle keepers and octo keepers "out there" - but none of my locals ever took it past the inquiry stage. Some have opted for a marine tank with more easy-care creatures, but most just abandon the effort when they realize that no matter what they want to keep, they are going to have to do 2 things - 1)Educate themselves, and 2)Spend money

I just don't get why Bubbashrimp chose to pick a fight in this thread, in particular against me - but I've addressed that already. Bubba, if you want to PM me, go ahead - but I am not interested in any further peeing match.

The intent of this thread was to give Heather recommendations on good products to carry, which her store was *not already carrying*.... she stated her store carries API stuff - and several others, as well as myself, suggested some other good things to have on hand, and speaking from experience in my "old pet shop"... (which is strictly aquatics, BTW - not a full line shop)... I described some of the things that move well and customers ask for. I think we've about covered that fairly well. If Bubbashrimp or anyone else wants to start a topic on cuttles, that would make for a good discussion - or even the pros and cons of Stress Coat

I was going to ask Bubbashrimp *why* he/she uses Stress Coat but that's for another thread too - and I'm not that motivated to find an answer.

Heather - have you taken up any of the offerings in this thread, to your GM? I *am* interested in what he/she has to say, and if you've managed to make any headway. I do believe that when any LFS raises the standard, it's good for *everybody* - the hobbyists, the other LFS and especially the livestock.

Jenn

 

[jenajet]

My experience:
API, new test out of the box: Ammonia off the chart! I freaked went to lfs, they retested with seachem. Perfect. They exchanged for the seachem and I gladly paid the difference. Shelf life of 5 years is good for me cause I only test about once a month, sometimes less. I have had the same kit now well over a year. I just don't see testing every week when this is a mature system that hasn't had any issues. If something is wanky (like when I froze the tank) yeah I break out an test to make sure everything is still okay. Sure I have stress coat, for my fresh tank and that is only used when introducing new fish. Made the mistake of putting it in my salt tank with my very first expensive fish. My skimmer went mad! Had to do water changes for a week to make it stop. Skimmers: pay more get better! My mr1 pulls about 1/2 gallon sometime more if heavy feeding. Maybe this is why I never really worry about testing cause my water is super dooper clean. Bubba, you are welcome to your opionion that is what this site is all about. I am not a store owner or worker. I am a hobbyist that spent alot of money on crap I didn't need cause someone told me I did.

 

[zxcv123]

API is a great brand with aquarium chemical testing, they also make wipes for cleaning the glass that are unique in the market.

Wardley, Nutrafin, OCEAN NUTRITION, O.S.I.,HIKARI,and DANACHI are great dry foods.

frozen food i would offer Sallys, Cyclopeeze, Ocean Nutrition formula 1 and 2,Hikari(rotifers and baby brine shrimp), Reed Mariculture(copepods and phytofeast) and DT's Phytoplankton.

Additives I would stock salifert(ammino acids and phosphate eliminator) for high end,seachem, and kent. Purple Up, Marine Snow

Got to have the BIowheel filter and its refill FOR SURE, Hagen filters to accomodate all.

Coralife lights(your not a saltwater store without them)

Carib Sea Geo-Marine aragonite formula florida crushed coral substrate to mix with or use singely

Instant ocean is the most popular sea salt. Coralife is affordable

Red Sea Skimmers for thier ease of use and cleanability

floating magnetic algae scrubber

Metro+, E.M. ERYTHROMYCIN, Melafix,Primafix, Formalin Malachite Green, and gel-Tek for medicines

Sorry to have to disagree but API have really bad test kits which are very inacurate and not good salt water stuff.

Red sea skimmers are known to crap out as well.

 

[zxcv123]

I would carry the line of ASM skimmers, saliferts test kits, kent saltwater products, and IO/ reef crystals as well as maybe some comertailly manufactured sump setups and mag pumps.

 

[zxcv123]

[, but to bash a product that has been suggested by a researcher to help is crazy. If you read the quote carefully he does not even say to use Stress Coat over another product.

:funny:
cant help but laugh.
Dont you understand? , The reasearcher is only telling you what he wants you to hear! You cant believe everything you hear out there.

Imo, stress coat is garbage. However, there is an imrortant lesson to be seen in the hijacking of this thread.
You cant believe and think everything that something is advertised or "reaserched" is true nececerally. They are telling you it is backed by a reasearcher because they are paying the researcher and they want to sell their product to you.

Trust me- Ive learned. Not everything you are told or see advertised in this hobby is true.

 

[tims]

IceBear,
as you can tell, you have a lot of research to do.
I too, was a manger of a LFS for many years,i still go to trade shows from time to time. going to one or two will help a lot plus you will get some samples. if you call the company rep. you might get some things sent to you also.

the public as a whole will generally go after the less expensive stuff, some of it may actually be good, most is not worth it. that is where you come in to play. even the local reef clubs will come in to play with some of the high end things.

Everyone else..
please stay on topic and help the fellow reefer, not everyone will agree on each item. if you want to discuss the pros and cons of certain items please start a new thread on it.

 

[leveldrummer]

a couple of skimmer suggestions... the coral life super skimmers are great beginner skimmers, good price, very easy to use, just a step up are the new octopus skimmers, just like the euros and asms, if you can get a line in the store, it would probably be cheaper since they are so new, anything larger than those two models would probably be special order. but both brands i mentioned are super easy to use, and work great.

since your a full line pet shop, remember that if you get a customer asking for a cuttle fish, to suggest stress coat, it might be very helpful to them, and it really couldnt hurt. not sure if other brands that do the same thing are needed.

 

[scootingblenny]

Joe's Juice

 

[motorslave]

Since (in my experience) paying more for a skimmer is worth it, maybe as a way to avoid heavy and costly inventory, talk with some makers of top line skimers and ask about a special order program for those who want a quality piece of equipment. Lets not forget that some peopl COULD get obsessed with this hobby! Not being able to physically carry every item isnt bad. Special orders can make money and with todays "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality, one awsome tank can spark many sales! It is a tech world people want the best, or at least the best they can afford.

Robert

 

[Doug1]

How come one moderator is asking an opinion while another moderator is telling me to lighten up

where are you going with this?

Bubba, please don't take this as a personal attack or flame or diss or whatever, BUT you keep going back to arguing about stress coat, and diverging from the intent of the thread. Suggestions were solicited, you made your suggestion, and stated reasons why, others have made suggestions and offered rational. THe point has been takien, its a bottle of stuff that prolly retails for less than $10, it's not worth everyone getting their britches in a bunch over This I suspect is getting way more personal than iot needs to be and is becoming counter productive. Everyones entitled to add their thoughts on stuff that a good LFS should stock, but Honestly I expected more disagreement on skimmers than a bottle of Stress Coat.
You , just like every other member is entitled to offer their opinion, but given the diversity of human experience and preference don't be surprised if someone doesn't agree with you. If you like Stress Coat or Red Sea Berlin skimmers, fine, others are bound to have a different opinion and offer alternatives.
The point of Ice Bears thread is to get input on items that seem to offer the best bang for the buck, ie cost effective for the hobbiest. Honestly arguing the merits of a $10 bottle of fish treatment is a bit on the petty side. I think the point is to get input on cost effective alternatives to the bargain basement skimmers and other stuff that newbs are conned into buying and later sit in closets collecting dust.
Again with all due respect , is this a hard concept to grasp?

 

[Bubbashrimp]

I wrote a respose to your inquiry Doug1, but I decided agaist opening the can of worms again. I am going to listen to twitterbait, I believe he has my/our best interest at heart. I will happily send it to you but I do not know how.

 

[motorslave]

A word of wisdom, get back to the topic at hand.