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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
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have you ever seen a reefing post about Seneye parameter meter...measures free ammonia nh3, temp, pH etc


I don't own one, I don't own any ammonia kit this post isn't to hawk for seneye its to discuss its coming impacts in our hobby.

I hope someone here owns one...does anyone here own a seneye so that what Im about to type doesn't seem so left field

watch a youtube video on one, that will help to show context.

about 20 significant new discoveries have been made in reefing using that meter, its serious science.

it shows us aspects of reef tank cycling that we simply did not know about ten years ago, seneyes are a big deal who has one or is thinking of getting one

they show whether or not fish-in cycling + bottle bac harms fish/allows for burning ammonia buildup

that's a totally controversial subject a million people are doing, why not study it down to thousandths ppm?

Seneye owners have...the findings are amazing and rule shattering.

that's one of twenty
 

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Shark..but a friendly one
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Hey Brandon! You got me/us intrigued here, BUT a little overwhelmed by all the posts. THIS seems to be at the core of all the posts, so I'll jump in here. 'About 20 new discoveries', and this is only one of them.....let's start hearing about them shall we?

You tripped my trigger mentioning 'fish in cycling'......I know that lfs around here still advocate this, BUT as a community WE have found it to be an outdated and cruel option. This seems like a good starting point.....
Hack
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Is it ok if I post a seneye study from another forum that shows how quickly Dr Tims bottle bac (#1 fish in cycler brand) shows to offset initial ammonia (as soon as its added ammonia is kept in check)


The rationale being in order to define the practice as harmful (for nh3 reasons) we have to see if free ammonia is occurring

The practice is harmful, for disease / skipping quarantine and fallow reasons, but not due to ammonia burning.

Agreed its hard to have seneye discussions if no one here is using one, can we link from another forum but discuss here?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Another fascinating detail about fish in cycles: nh3 noncontrol has obvious symptoms for every animal enduring it across the board in veterinary science, it's a quick killer

But all these fish-in + bottle bac cycle tanks... clear water, fish feeding acting normal (for months, until brook wipes them out)

We had clues ammonia was easily controlled before we had digital ways to measure it.

Fish that are burnt by free ammonia die in 24 hours and don't eat or swim normally. They have advanced opercular rates (gill movement)


but what do the two clowns always do in someone’s fish-in cycle post? Act normal.


I'm against the practice due to disease issues, but fish in cycling plus bottle bac is happening now in the hobby at an advanced rate because bottle bac is so good at skipping the cycle and the public knows it.

we focused on the wrong reasons to stop using fish and bottle bac for an initial cycle. All the guidance we'd been giving for ammonia control (the easy part) made us miss the real risk and now crypto uro or brook kills 80% of all new reef fish in six months of startup

not in Pauls fifty year old tank/aware—- am referring to the common new tank setup we see posted about daily on forums.

we'd validate someone's 1 month + cycle but the majority of their fish will still die in half a year due to disease issues if fallow and quarantine are skipped, that’s the risk in today’s cycling. Seneye merely let us see that ammonia control is consistent tank to tank, api has us thinking it’s not.


*we can pre verify the state of the bottle bac before adding fish, in case shipping conditions killed it in the bottle which is rare but usually the top concern. we can use api for proofing but we tune it a certain way to reduce misread potential

we use three api pictures to see if the tank has active bacteria:

pic 1 is api ammonia test on the water + bottle bac, before fish. no ammonia added. An ammonia baseline (see how his baseline is .25 = 99% of all stuck cycle threads on the web, it’s a misread)
241209

pic 2 is after adding liquid cycling ammonia until the water tests only slightly higher than before, I give a specific example here from poster jackalexander with permission:

241210


pic 3 is 24 hours later, it’ll match the baseline if the bacteria were active. We didn’t need to see zero to use the api kit here, we saw motion which it can report well.

241211


*someone else may prefer no quarantine but rather tank maturation to handle disease suppression, the hobby does not currently have a best way

quarantine is what zoos use, so it’s a fair reference here even if not everyone quarantines. Agreed that ultra matured systems can suppress disease

the measure above shows bottle bac proofing, and the loss rate due to non quarantine is a report from the hundreds of messages about tanks that friends and I exchange. The hobby needs fish disease prevention tricks, controlling ammonia from a bottle is the easy part, its water bac being concentrated in water then resold to us.
 

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Shark..but a friendly one
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So the gist is.....Us worrying about cycling our new/moved tanks isn't all about ammonia control, IF we use 'bottled bacteria', but rather from disease? A 'cycling Fish' that makes it 24 hrs. ,yet eventually dies, is from disease because of lack of quarantine protocols? An example given.....if skipped 'all fish died within 6 months from disease'....?

I did like the API validation testing.....never thought of that. We always mentioned trying another kit in case one may have been 'bad'. GOOD CALL!

Hack
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
In handling thousands of first time cycles online I've never personally seen a dead bottle of bacteria. Its hard to ship bottled water bacteria so badly they die

Dr. Reef has a massive 90 page thread online where bottle bac companies sent him their stock to test using seneye…he did have a few dead bottles in the lots sent to him so the possibility exists but its small


so that means 99.9% of anyone who inputs a bottle of cycling bac into a tank is going to skip cycle, meaning initial bioload will be handled and depending on the tester used, it will show very consistent tank to tank. And if the bottle is dead/inactive, their tank will go cloudy and smelly in a few hours and the fish will die... these are the associated signs of ammonia non control in reef tanks such that we don't have to test anything to infer the issue, it always happens this way in a reef that isn't ready.

That's why when the fish die months later we know nh3/free ammonia was not the killer. that will kill the fish in 48~ hours after setup if applicable. We have that testing option above to proof out the bottle bac before adding fish if needed.

*there is no bigger rabbit hole in reefing than quarantine/no quarantine evolution within our hobby. Reef sages that have decades of experience don't seem to need QT admittedly, but the throngs of new posters buying items from petsmart an online to reef are giving feedback such that the loss rates stated above come from daily posts on reefs we cycled 6-8 mos ago, working several as we speak. I hope to avoid the qt/no qt rabbit hole by just separating the bioload carry portion of a cycle from the disease-ready portion-whether that's a very matured reef with ocean pods added, top shelf feed to prevent disease or the very methodical tank transfer/fallow and qt, cycling has specific timeframes now in the hobby vs the classic open-ended 30 day wait.

we need the initial focus to be a choice on disease prevention, the tediousness of ammonia control is pretty much gone from the hobby now. If we google/search forums across the board for fish-in cycles with bottle bac, I can't find any that didn't work. That's how common its become

The timeframe on nearly all bottle bac labels is ten days, that's a recurring theme we like to use in reefing for these types of cycles.
 

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we focused on the wrong reasons to stop using fish and bottle bac for an initial cycle. All the guidance we'd been giving for ammonia control (the easy part) made us miss the real risk and now crypto uro or brook kills 80% of all new reef fish in six months of startup
On what do you base this. The people who don't have problems don't normally post.
Where do you get data to come to the conclusion that 80% of all new reef die from disease in 6 months.
I have purchased all of my livestock from Petco, not the best source, and have had only 4 deaths, 3 suicide and one pajama cardinal that was 7 years old, old age. I did not quarantine any of them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have not been linking to outside studies/not sure if that's ok here so much of this is a trusted relay. the source is what I see on a day to day basis as I work multiple web forums on the internet/long time

owing to skills variation among reef aquarists, its not a surprise if you're keeping chain store fish more successful than others. they're going into top-managed systems.

But imagine if I linked a fish disease forum thread here, so active that it gets twenty new posts a day for help from starting aquarists. in that deluge we get patterns/feedback and details

they don't feed as well and diverse as could be

they're all mid-uglies stage, right when the reefing world has them go hands off and let it be...this is lowering water quality vs proactively maintaining it with changes...then there's the crowded holding and shipping of the source fish, this is how we get to the % for every 100 new builds offered up for analysis in my opinion.

One of the benefits of the crowded/furiously active reef boards is this level of input and feedback.

nano reefers can get away with no qt on clowns and common gobies and beat that 80% rate, those fish are pretty tough and there are years of logs at places like nano-reef.com to see that tight group of fish typically doing ok

but few stop there nowadays... they'll have madarins chromis and other fish well beyond a couple common clowns/designer ones and this is the mix that gets the high loss rate.
 

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If you wish to clarify the statement to of what you have seen I will accept that.
But not the across the board 80% value as there is no way you can have data to support that claim.
The fish did not go into well maintained systems. This is my first tank, and unfortunately I don't have access to a close source of fresh sea food and they have been fed only flake food.
True there is a lot of disease out there but I do not think that we can equate it to a loss of 80% of the fish sold.
If so we should seriously re-think selling them at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
excellent, glad we can make pertinent links it helps clarify.


track out the rate of new posts there over the next five days, consider the stickies at the top for methodology of prevention.

whats missing from the stickies: methods from a bottle we buy at the retail store.

or loaded fish feeding/medicated feeding *as the sole disease prevention approach

or tank aging techniques

what is included: fallow and quarantine info, because its the tops for the day. Who knows what we'll be doing in 2040.

*that is not the sole source for fish disease care on the internet. Its just the current best I know of using one of the hobby's top fish disease authors as the lead poster in most cases. Even though that's not a close-the-book link, it shows directly the degree of need we have in the hobby for fish disease, when dealing with today's quick reefing options, and it all traces back to that super mega easy skip cycle at the start. They all felt free to reef onward as soon as api let them, then the real challenge snuck up.

we have to be able to see a hundred new builds to get any stats, it can't be based on our own tanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
summary of some common Seneye measurement impacts in the hobby (makes for strong discussion material, highly debatable stuff)

-the speed at which bottle bac prepares a reef for initial bioloading / discussed above.

-removing sandbeds all at once from reef tanks does not leave the leftover rocks lacking bacteria or ability to control the entire bioloading that sand+ rock previously carried. If we set a poll, 100% of respondents would disagree with this claim but the degree of work we have on the matter is truly strong... six years of sand removals in one single thread- some tracked by seneye and some by mindstream, a now defunct company that also had a device for measuring nh3 form ammonia in the ppb range. we show routinely that removing sandbeds from full reefs, some worth thirty grand on file, did not harm the nitrification abilities of the system, the live rocks are this ready at all times. We had no way to measure that accurately before seneye, as api is known for almost always showing some free ammonia.

-threads exist where 30+ reef aquariums are actively dosing liquid cycling ammonia, TO their reef tanks, years old. They do this for ultimate nitrogen boosting, color deepening as ammonia is a primary energy substrate for many animals as long as its not at toxicity levels. Seneye shows that all reefs, not some, handle ammonia spikes within five minutes. There is no delay for days and days with free ammonia, that's solely a color tube/titration tester's claim. digital measurements show it to not occur


-seneye measures other params too like par and pH but those are boring subjects compared to ammonia control details lol

-seneye shows that at no time in a reef tank's life arc does ammonia hit tenths ppm and then hang there, it always trends to thousandths ppm due to the degree of rocks and sand surface area we all use/redundant overdone levels present a rapid uptake of ammonia in all settings. This means every stuck ammonia emergency post on the internet is false, talk about an outstanding claim.


thought this would make for a fun summary of some of the top impacts from seneye testing. * some work threads that deal with these subjects go back before seneye was invented which is also rather interesting...work threads make for a nice proofing stamp left on the internet, free. a form of trademarking informally. we had been removing sandbeds a while before the digital measurement proofs came on scene, and we took time to log it all in one single post nearing fifty pages now. jobs/outcomes added as recently as Sunday.
 

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You can log and coralate all of the posts on every site on the internet and it will still not support your claim that 80% of fish sold for new systems die in six months from disease.
To do this you would have to know the total number of fish sold for that purpose, that data is not collected, then the total number of fish dying from disease, this data is also not available.
Your claim is not supportable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
that was my take based on the link provided and from new starts handled in message plus updates, that's ok if we disagree no harm no foul

curious if you have any counter links from any source showing a more controlled disease approach in started tanks?

from those entrants above, we can click on their build links and see the age of the tank. The number of posters on page one with reefs under 8 months old...Ill start a poll there to just inquire at what month they saw disease issues. handy to at least narrow the guessing rate

at least the above is concentrated feedback source for build follow ups until additional options to check for patterns are linked.
 

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You have no proof for 80%.
The data to support it does not exit.
If you wish to go with 80% of cases you have seen fine. However a blanket 80% of fish sold for new systems is totally unsubstantiated.
Your failure to see this simple fact creates doubt on any other conclusion you arrive at.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
that's my estimate its ok if you feel its low/10% not a prob. we have to pick a general number somewhere, that's my estimate. If the new aquarist doesn't heed qt and fallow, we'll be speaking of replacing fish within 8 mos or so, 8 out of 10 new reefs started.

a brooklynella wipeout.
this was an interesting post, and timing. I worked with the individual to cycle their tank and we discussed fish disease in depth, they didn't like my idea of fallow and qt.

and the title of the help thread is....directly in line with what Im relaying.

see without new tanks on file to follow up, we can't make ground one way or another. we can settle for these two being the only scannable links on file for the matter, but accepting any others that may reveal other patterns.
 

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There is no data to calculate the percent of deaths in new tanks due to disease or any other reason.
There is no reason to “pick a number somewhere” unless you are trying to scare people to quarantine.
Yes, there is disease in the trade, and as far as I know there is no numerical data as to how much. There may be some fish importers who keep records of numbers of fish purchased and the number of deaths. If so this is most likely just for tax purposes and the cause of death is not noted.
hobbiest have disease problems but there is no way to quantify the percentage.

If you can not see what I am saying there is no reason for me to keep explaining the concept to you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
At what age was your reef tank when you noticed fish disease issues Edit
  • 0-8 months
    Votes: 4 57.1%
  • 8 mos - 24 mos
    Votes: 2 28.6%
    over 24 months old
    Votes: 1 14.3%


    Few hours later
    • 0-8 months
      Votes: 7 77.0%
    • 8 mos - 24 mos
      Votes: 2 22.0%
    • over 24 months old
      Votes: 1 11.0%
    • Total voters 10



      The poll is trending in the way mentioned. I never thought any sort of fish disease prevention discussion would wind up agreeable, merely worth a consideration. When starting a new tank, choose the options opposite of fallow and quarantine if they're better. guess we'll see where it heads in a week. its not scientific, but then again we literally have no other links, polls or investigations into the matter alternatively to look at or even decide if the incidence of disease is rising along with the use of all dry rock starts
back in 2005 nobody was doing all dry rock starts, so outcome data changing isn't a terrible surprise imo. Here’s another one at 8-11 mos for the patterning

our poll ended a week later at fifty percent.

  • 0-8 months
    Votes: 50.0%
  • 8 mos - 24 mos
    Votes: 19.2%
  • over 24 months old
    Votes: 13.8%
  • No emergence of disease at all
    Votes: 26.9%

  • Total voters 26

there, now we have some data to remark upon vs personal testimonies only.

a seven month disease issue
 
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