Reefkeeping made easy- what was not explained.

I was thinking some part had to do with water depth, but now that i look at it maybe not....

not a lot of algae in the tropics shelf

depth - Blue Represents the continental shelf


algae


depth+algae

hmm, it seems you got to the answer about using base rock without the intermediary step so i would have thought the intermediary step would be just as easy. no biggie, i must have asked the question poorly.

we know that algae like to grow in high nutrient areas. we know that nutrients settle out in low flow areas. these areas tend to be in lagoons. we know that LR is self cleaning if given enough flow. so, when people are looking at the LR with the most growth on it, where would you guess that LR was farmed? yep, in a lagoon. if it were farmed further out on the reef, then the LR would have a lot different life on it. it would have little algae, and you would occasionally get hard corals growing on it. when was the last time anybody had hard corals growing on the new LR? instead we get mantis shrimp, various types of algae that we then have to deal with. the further out the farm is the more expensive it is for harvesting, this does not make sense. that means that our fresh LR is already loaded with phosphates before we even get them in the tank. just to add another layer to the phosphate mix. nearly all of the LR is farmed on land first then seeded in the ocean. we all know how loaded the land is with phosphates.

now for the good part. this was known back when i started reefing in the late 80's early 90's. when you used to go to the store to get the LR there were 2 bins of it. one was cured and one was fresh. the cured LR costed more than the fresh. that was because the cured LR had been at the store in the bin for several weeks allowing the LR to self clean in the bins releasing most of its phosphates. you did not want the fresh stuff. the fresh stuff coming into vogue in the late 90's to early 2000's was because of the "sand experts" in our hobby saying that we needed the biodiversity in our systems to allow our crazy deep sandbeds to function properly, like in the wild. well they don't. they can't. so here we are, now having to buy fresh LR because for some reason we still think sand systems work magic and we still need the biodiversity. when in fact we are just preloading our systems with loads of phosphates and unwanted hitchhiker critters.

i just tried to see if you can buy cured LR anymore and it looks like Premium Aquatics still does it right. their little blurb describes what was done in every LFS that sold SW worth a darn.

BTW- don't every buy live sand. how can it be live if it is in a bag of water? you guessed it, just more phosphates to add to your system. the best thing you can do to jump start your system would be a very small piece of LR from a system you trust. the smaller the better. that way you can scrutinize it and make sure there are not any unwanted hitchhikers on it. you will be amazed out how even a tiny piece of LR will contain the bristleworms and pods that everyone needs in their system.

any questions? am i boring everyone? making sense? completely off my rocker? any feedback would be good.

G~

Geoff said:

the fresh stuff coming into vogue in the late 90's to early 2000's was because of the "sand experts" in our hobby saying that we needed the biodiversity in our systems to allow our crazy deep sandbeds to function properly, like in the wild. well they don't. they can't. so here we are, now having to buy fresh LR because for some reason we still think sand systems work magic and we still need the biodiversity. when in fact we are just preloading our systems with loads of phosphates and unwanted hitchhiker critters.

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You would think, after all this time, after the countless animals that have died, the millions of dollars hobbyists have needlessly spent, the number of OTS cases, and the number of tanks that have completely crashed, this whole typical DSB thing would have died a long time ago. It doesn't work in practice, it doesn't work in theory, and it violates the basic laws of nature, and yet we continue to allow deep piles of rot, filth, and the critters that feed on it, to accumulate on the bottom of our tanks. We do this in tanks where we are trying to keep some of the most environmentally sensitive creatures of the planet. I will never understand this line of thinking.

any questions? am i boring everyone? making sense? completely off my rocker? any feedback would be good.

G~

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Man..... You left the door wide open with the "completely off my rocker" statement,:funny: but that's to easy. I think you're doing a great job.:beer:

Geoff,
ya know it seems, u can yell at me for this but its just IMVHHO(in my very honest humble opinion), your a DSB hater and try to find any possible reason for it not to work. in my experience and maintenance routine it works great for my tank and its residents. I hardly think im a clean freak, or even want a 'sterile' tank. I see more life, health, productivity, reproductiveness (if thats even a word lol) that way in my tank. my parameters are all great, no big fluctuations unless i move rock around then a small spike in ammonia/phos(mini cycle). Not saying your wrong or your facts are wrong. But DSB works for whatever reason and the only drawback is the unsightly detritus build up on the white sand. but saying that u also have to have a maintenance routine but that goes without saying even if ya have a DSB or BB. if ya have a tank no matter whats in there ya gotta clean up ya just like ya clean the house. Now if we (those with tanks) let it build up to ungodly amounts then it could be a problem but then it wouldnt matter if its a DSB or BB. the chemical reactions/changes that occur would start killing everything. like a trash heap.

Ntvper- i am not necessarily a DSB hater. i even had one for several years. the truth is they just do not work long term in the manner that was preached to us for so many years. if you are only going to keep a system for 3-4 years, then yes they will work for that length of time. if you are planning on running the system for longer then that then you are going to have to replace the sand bed if you follow proper DSB care procedures. how much data needs to be shown before this DSB method will just go away.

here is some solid study material for anybody who wants to see where i have gleaned nearly all of my knowledge about what is going on. i have posted a few threads about the nitrate cycle. there are the ones about phosphates. i will also include those threads that get to the meat of why DSB's do not work also.

So do skimmer take out phosphates or not.

Why are everyone so afraid to talk about phosphates?

Do Phosphate removers/sponges really work?

Can Phosphate levels be too low?

Aragonite/Calcite phosphate adsoprtion

Does Kalkwasser Really Precipitate Phosphates?

DSB threads worth their read. they also talk about phosphates significantly.

Request for Help + the Funniest Parable I've ever seen on DSB's

Some funny misconceptions I've read about DSB's

Ways To Make DSB's Work (and why many don't)

it will not take long reading through any of these threads, that Spanky knows what he is talking about. he is well respected in the aquarium industry. feel free to ask around to verify if the information in these threads is correct. if you are members of RC, then they know Spanky as Bomber over there.

i will let you all get a good read on those threads before we move on a bit. besides, i need the weekend to study up some more.

G~