The Reef Tank banner

Reefkeeping made easy- what was not explained.

899503 Views 1783 Replies 195 Participants Last post by  hackshobby
here are a few threads that were started in another forum about what is going on in our system. hopefully some of you all will read the information here and start to get a handle on what makes our systems work or not work. I know this may require some reading and those on the internet are allergic to reading threads that are not theirs, but give this thread a go. I am hoping that it will answer most of the questions you may have about reefkeeping. these first three posts may be a bit disjointed. as they came from the other thread. I will try and edit them so that they flow a bit better and lead into each other better.

the biggest things we will be discussing in this thread are the biological process that are going on in our systems. these biological process are what most of the false information that is out there is about. this includes reef forums and LFS. The two main elemental processes we will be discussing are the Nitrogen and Phosphate cycles that are occurring in our systems. these two elements lead to the greatest confusion about what is going on in our little slices of ocean.

There will be a lot of information in this thread. I will be linking to other threads with even more reading and papers on the subject at hand for even further reading. This hobby is easy if you understand what is going on, if you do not care to understand what is going on and listen to a lot of false information out there, then this hobby can be very frustrating and lots of wasted money.
I would anybody to ask questions if they need clarifications. I will try and keep things as short as possible to keep the reading down to a minimum, but some of this stuff is fairly long winded in general.

G~

UPDATE

A sort of Table of Contents for the thread. please feel free to PM any subjects or pages i should add to the contents.

Introduction: Page 1
Nitrogen cycle: Pages 1-2, 22
Phosphates: Page 3, 31
Sources of Phosphates: Page 3
Phosphate Cycle Graphics: Page 35
Early Tank Processes: Page 30
Problems with Sand: Page 4, 19
Sandbed Cleaning:page 7
DSB's: Page 9
BB Alternatives: Page 25
About LR: Page 8
LR Purging: Page 19, 26
Cured LR: Page 23
Tank Flow: Page 7
Light: Pages 13-15
Kalkwasser: Page 12, 17
Feeding: Pages 17-19
Zoax: Pages 15-17
Carbon Dosing: Pages 24-25
Tank Self Feeding: Page 27
Conservation of Matter: Page 28
Beer!: Pages 6-7
Bad Experts: Page 19
Definitions according to Spanky: Page 21
My Reference Links: Page 37
See less See more
501 - 520 of 1784 Posts
I used to run the Bean meathod (A.K.A. Herbie drain) cause my display and sump are on two different floors, but My new display (still seperate floors) just has double corner overflow's with Durso's.

My Question is, After reading this thread through and through, Technically, The bean method is generaly better because you would be eliminating that 40 feet of oxygen rich 1.5 inch plumbing, cause the bean method is in full siphon, instead of introuducing air to break the siphon. Correct???
it will not help the nitrate problem much if that is what you are talking about. the full siphon run would still be high oxygen and the bacteria will still be on all of the sides. the secondary tube will also be highly oxygenated and will supply nitrates also. there is not real way i know of to keep nitrates completely down on a system with significant plumbing.

for me i will be setting up a completely different system in a different house all together. this time the fish room will be directly below the system instead of a floor down and 45' away.

Thinking more about this vaguely I was wondering if and how long/well will a reef tank run with out additions of any other food source besides light which creates tons of different types of food in our tanks? Still keeping up with good husbandry and water changes.
not following you here. why would you not want to feed your system what it needs? if you really wanted to you could just keep photosynthetic organisms. that would limit the amount of swimming critters, but can be done.

G~
The reason I asked this is I'm wondering how much food is in our systems already. I started a small nano tank a few weeks ago and added some live rock from my 75g reef tank which has been running for almost 3 years. Shortly after adding some small live rock to seed the nano tank, I had a huge bloom of brine shrimp a few days latter. I'm wondering how much life/food is already in our systems that are running well enough alone with just a little bit of food for the fishes. I know you can't not feed the tank, corals and fish but I wondering how little you can feed them. Sorry to be vague just focusing on the main topic and thinging even more so.
Here is the Vids.... they arent the gratest..... but...
The first is the upstairs half, and the second is the down stairs part....

http://s678.photobucket.com/albums/vv149/lukelubinskyj/?action=view&current=MVI_1150.mp4

http://s678.photobucket.com/albums/vv149/lukelubinskyj/?action=view&current=MVI_1149.mp4
The reason I asked this is I'm wondering how much food is in our systems already. I started a small nano tank a few weeks ago and added some live rock from my 75g reef tank which has been running for almost 3 years. Shortly after adding some small live rock to seed the nano tank, I had a huge bloom of brine shrimp a few days latter. I'm wondering how much life/food is already in our systems that are running well enough alone with just a little bit of food for the fishes. I know you can't not feed the tank, corals and fish but I wondering how little you can feed them. Sorry to be vague just focusing on the main topic and thinging even more so.
I kind of see what you mean, I have a fresh water tank, and feed it a few times a month, and clean it once a month. I could really get away with no feeding, but I feed just to make sure the fish get a balanced diet.

the light grows algae, all fish eat algae, fish poo turns into nutrients, algae takes up nutrients to grow...

it is not a self sustaining tank, but it dose grow FRESH algae instead of dried algae like in the flake food...
I kind of see what you mean, I have a fresh water tank, and feed it a few times a month, and clean it once a month. I could really get away with no feeding, but I feed just to make sure the fish get a balanced diet.

the light grows algae, all fish eat algae, fish poo turns into nutrients, algae takes up nutrients to grow...

it is not a self sustaining tank, but it dose grow FRESH algae instead of dried algae like in the flake food...
Kind of what I'm think Nate, but with hundreds of micro micro organisms/bacteria's etc.. in our reef tanks (with out phytoplankton). I was shocked to see a brine shrimp blooms and thats what I know many people just feed there tanks alone again this is a side from water changes and lighting etc etc... I guess I should have asked the question, "do we feed our tank/corals to much just to keep them alive?"
Kind of what I'm think Nate, but with hundreds of micro micro organisms/bacteria's etc.. in our reef tanks (with out phytoplankton). I was shocked to see a brine shrimp blooms and thats what I know many people just feed there tanks alone again this is a side from water changes and lighting etc etc... I guess I should have asked the question, "do we feed our tank/corals to much just to keep them alive?"
I well over feed my tank, but after everyone has had a good deal to eat, I suck out the leftovers.

also are you sure those are brine shrimp, and not mysid?

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f...k-156534.html?highlight=brine+shrimp+breeding
Here is the Vids.... they arent the gratest..... but...
The first is the upstairs half, and the second is the down stairs part....

http://s678.photobucket.com/albums/vv149/lukelubinskyj/?action=view&current=MVI_1150.mp4

http://s678.photobucket.com/albums/vv149/lukelubinskyj/?action=view&current=MVI_1149.mp4
I've always wanted to do something like this since you can really setup a large sump and have easy access to everything. Thanks for posting, so what are you tring to show anyway about the drain?
I've always wanted to do something like this since you can really setup a large sump and have easy access to everything. Thanks for posting, so what are you tring to show anyway about the drain?
i just seen you guys talkin about it, and thought i would show how quiet you can make 3000 gallons an hour plus!!!!
goodness, why are you pulling 3000gph through an overflow? it is more efficient to run a CLS for that much flow. i only had about 400gph through my overflow on my 125g. i had another 12000gph through various CLS's.

G~
i don't doo that anymore, i didn't know much better than, and i didn't have power heads yet....
no worries. that is just some serious flow through an overflow!!

G~
no worries. that is just some serious flow through an overflow!!

G~
+1

if I had a 3000gph+ pump I would use it as a closed loop, and get little pump to handle the return. :thumbup:

what pump did you use for the 3000gph?
+1

if I had a 3000gph+ pump I would use it as a closed loop, and get little pump to handle the return. :thumbup:

what pump did you use for the 3000gph?
I am still using the pump, just choked her back a bit, It's in the video, it's a reeflo Baracuda, and with head loss, i am actually only getting 2500 gph,

I would make an awsome closed loop though, at 4500 gph at 0 head, abuddy of mine uses one on his 700 gallon tank for a closed loop
posting this nice little graphic showing the phosphorus cycle.



take not on the fact that only plants are able to remove P from a substrate. also note that plate tektonics is how P is removed from the water environment.

G~
See less See more
we also need to understand Phosphates in nature never change, there are always so much phosphate matter on/in the earth.

our tanks its another story, as long as we add food, we are adding phosphates, just think if we had a steady stream of phosphates from outer space, we would get over run with phosphates here on earth...
phosphorus is the element that is base to the phosphates. P can be bound in all types of form in our systems. how it is bound in a living critter is different then it is bound in the water column.

to say phosphate never change is not entirely correct. :D

G~
phosphorus is the element that is base to the phosphates. P can be bound in all types of form in our systems. how it is bound in a living critter is different then it is bound in the water column.

to say phosphate never change is not entirely correct. :D

G~
sorry I meant the phosphorus element, I keep jumping the gun :doh:
I don't think it gets much more simplicit then this.
Can I get a college credit now for studying all this?
I just got a "new" book this weekend and it had some very interesting things to say, this one is regarding PO4...

Phosphorus is very important in the marine environment. It is a necessary component of the chemicals of life, ATI' (Adenosine TriPhosphate) and DNA (DeoxyriboNucleic Acid), and is also part of bones, teeth, and shells. Phosphorus enters the marine environment from the land. The breakdown of rock and sediments releases inorganic phosphorus to wash from land to sea. Phosphorus released from sewage and fertilizer also eventually finds the sea. Phosphorus occurs in three forms in marine waters: Dissolved Inorganic Phosphorus (DIP) as orthophosphate and phosphate, Dissolved Organic Phosphorus (DOP) as part of dissolved organic compounds, and as Particulate Organic Phosphorus (POP) in organic particles, Including components of detritus. Phosphorus is not a part of the atmosphere and there is no exchange toward equilibrium with atmospheric gas. However, dissolved inorganic phosphate (DIP) readily leaves seawater incorporated in tiny droplets of salt spray along with other organic and inorganic compounds. DIP coats air bubbles in seawater, travels with the bubbles to the surface, and leaves the water with the transport of salt spray. This mechanism for phosphate loss from seawater is more of a factor in marine aquariums where spray particles are
lost from the system than in the natural environment. In fact, these "aerosol particles" composed of phosphate and organic compounds form particles that are an important food source to planktonic organisms. DIP is converted to POP though air/water interaction at the sea surface.​
readily take up dissolved organic phosphate (DOP) and dissolved inorganic phosphate (DIP), and in the natural environment, the amount of phosphate present is often the limiting factor in the bloom of microalgaes. Phosphate levels are higher in coastal areas near rivers and near oceanic upwell ings of water from the deeps. It is in these areas that phytoplankton blooms are most common. Phosphorus moves from algae as DOP and POP when the algaes decompose and also into the tissues of animals when consumed. A great deal of phosphorus becomes part of the detritus in the form of particu late organic detritus (POP). Were it not for the legions of bac teria and animals that feed on detritus and transform POP into DIP in the process, most marine phosphorus would be lost in the sediments. The phosphorus cycle in seawater is illustrated in Figure 10.​
In the natural environment, especially over coral reefs, the amount of DOP and DIP is very low, less than 30 parts per billion in most coral reef environments. Phosphorus tends to accumulate in marine aquarium systems, however, through excretion from plants and animals, decay of plant and animal tissues, and animal and bacterial processing of detritus. Excess phosphorus, over I to 2 parts per million (mg/l), vigorously encourages plant growth, and interferes with calcification in coral growth; and unless there is a luxuriant growth of macro algaes, growth of undesirable blue-green algaes and encrusting red algaes are stimulated. Aside from algal growth, phosphorus accumulation can be controlled by water exchange, protein foam skimming, and removal of excess detritus. Reduction of the animal loading of the aquarium and/or increasing the total water volume of the system are other methods that will improve the balance of plant and animal life and reduce nutrient accumulation.​


Martin A. Moe, Jr. (1989). The Marine Aquarium Reference: Systems and Invertebrates: Chapter 3: page 94-96

http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Aquari...0052/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305564746&sr=8-1
See less See more
501 - 520 of 1784 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top