Reefkeeping made easy- what was not explained.

899503 Views 1783 Replies 195 Participants Last post by hackshobby, Aug 5, 2017

Geoff

Discussion Starter · Jan 17, 2011 (Edited)

here are a few threads that were started in another forum about what is going on in our system. hopefully some of you all will read the information here and start to get a handle on what makes our systems work or not work. I know this may require some reading and those on the internet are allergic to reading threads that are not theirs, but give this thread a go. I am hoping that it will answer most of the questions you may have about reefkeeping. these first three posts may be a bit disjointed. as they came from the other thread. I will try and edit them so that they flow a bit better and lead into each other better.

the biggest things we will be discussing in this thread are the biological process that are going on in our systems. these biological process are what most of the false information that is out there is about. this includes reef forums and LFS. The two main elemental processes we will be discussing are the Nitrogen and Phosphate cycles that are occurring in our systems. these two elements lead to the greatest confusion about what is going on in our little slices of ocean.

There will be a lot of information in this thread. I will be linking to other threads with even more reading and papers on the subject at hand for even further reading. This hobby is easy if you understand what is going on, if you do not care to understand what is going on and listen to a lot of false information out there, then this hobby can be very frustrating and lots of wasted money.
I would anybody to ask questions if they need clarifications. I will try and keep things as short as possible to keep the reading down to a minimum, but some of this stuff is fairly long winded in general.

G~

UPDATE

A sort of Table of Contents for the thread. please feel free to PM any subjects or pages i should add to the contents.

Introduction: Page 1
Nitrogen cycle: Pages 1-2, 22
Phosphates: Page 3, 31
Sources of Phosphates: Page 3
Phosphate Cycle Graphics: Page 35
Early Tank Processes: Page 30
Problems with Sand: Page 4, 19
Sandbed Cleaning

age 7
DSB's: Page 9
BB Alternatives: Page 25
About LR: Page 8
LR Purging: Page 19, 26
Cured LR: Page 23
Tank Flow: Page 7
Light: Pages 13-15
Kalkwasser: Page 12, 17
Feeding: Pages 17-19
Zoax: Pages 15-17
Carbon Dosing: Pages 24-25
Tank Self Feeding: Page 27
Conservation of Matter: Page 28
Beer!: Pages 6-7
Bad Experts: Page 19
Definitions according to Spanky: Page 21
My Reference Links: Page 37

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461 - 480 of 1784 Posts

aborgardt

· #461 · Mar 15, 2011

Well. I can honestly say I have been born again.... With a whole new meaning to sw and reefs. I have spent the last 4 days picking at this thread (and the wifey is not pleased with the lack of attention) only to throw away everything i thought i knew and replace it with this wealth of knowledge. Definitely a bookmark to be made here.

Brad65ford

· #462 · Mar 15, 2011

BB Tank, no sump, no refugium (macro algea) woos

Guys I'm feeling a bit down today with the way my setup is, everything is still not blooming as well as it should. I'm been fighting nitrates and finial got them down to 0 ish but my corral are still not flourishing (I thought that was the case but I was wrong). I'm asking this here since its basicly the description Geoff mentions is totally possible with out sand or a sump. So I need some inspiration, who has a BB tank with out a sump and no macroalgae chaeto reef setups they can show me that look great and totally flourishing you can't stop the growth.

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #463 · Mar 15, 2011

do you have a blog, or thread describing everything about your system?

what corals are you trying to grow? how fast do you think these corals grow? some you are lucky if you get 1/4" a month.

G~

Brad65ford

· #464 · Mar 15, 2011

No G, I've basicly been keeping a log with this one thread I started including pics and test results of my system. The tank has been running for 2+ years she basicly started out as a BB with live rock for a "FOWL" setup. The last couple months I've up the lighting to LED's and I've now seen coraline algea so I know I'm close. http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/testing-the-water-with-out-a-test-kit-159578.html

Nate_Bro

· #465 · Mar 16, 2011

Geoff said:
that was one annoying day, the removal of the DSB. it went bad faster than normal because of all of the Fe that my well water was getting into my system from the water filter not working properly.

looking at the website and then looking at the build thread, they are quite different. even though the glass box was the same.

G~

It dose seem like two different builds!

Chalkoutline

· #466 · Mar 20, 2011

After 31 pages and two days of my life, all I can say is "WOW".

My tank is only 7 or 8 weeks old. In that time I've had ideas of grandeur about reefpods, sumps, refugiums, chaeto, DIY plumbing projects, and a myriad of things that are way beyond my means... the whole 9 yards.

This thread has effectively put the kibash on 95% of my future plans. With this threads' perspective, all the things I wanted to do now seem like bandaids:

Regfugium - not gonna happen now. Not necessary since I've now scrapped the idea of removing Nitrates with Chaeto.

Plumbing projects - won't need it (draining just water is apparently not the most effective water change ... why build it if it still needs vacuumed?)

Chaeto - IF I have any Chaeto, it will only be used as a sort of Nitrate tester. NOT a home for more things that defecate.

Flow - has been upped on the priority scale. So far I'm only receiving minuscule flow from a powerfilter. Speaking of which...

Powerfilter - I'll begin treating it like the thing it really is - nitrate factory. I don't see any sense in running carbon in it if carbon is only recommend for a few days use. Use it like the particulate filter it really is and begin cleaning the pads in the after-water of weekly water changes.

If I'm off target on something here, let me know. But I've been spending the last couple of days getting to know you folks, so I guess there's my introduction, lol.

I am very grateful I ran across this thread 2 months into my tank instead of 2 years. I feel as though my experience level has been put on a fast-track.

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Brad65ford

· #467 · Mar 20, 2011

Welcome to the simple thoughts of reefing. Only thing this thread is missing is sucess photos

Elegance Coral

· #468 · Mar 20, 2011

Brad65ford said:
Welcome to the simple thoughts of reefing. Only thing this thread is missing is sucess photos

What kind of photos are you looking for?
Here's a video of my tank several months back. I need to do an updated video.

Brad65ford

· #469 · Mar 20, 2011

Elegance Coral said:
What kind of photos are you looking for?
Here's a video of my tank several months back. I need to do an updated video.

Looking great my man

! Not sure your setup but is it what this thread about by keeping things simple? I'm just looking for pic/videos of those that follow these method of BB/Skimmer/LR only idea no fuge/macro algae/bioball/sand (substrat) etc..

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #470 · Mar 21, 2011

this thread is all about knowing what is necessary and what is not about keeping SW systems. making sure that you match the system to the critters and know what each choice entails. matching the nutrient level to the environment you are trying to create, and where the nutrient problems come from and why.

G~

Themistocles88

· #471 · Mar 26, 2011

I've tried to skim through this massive thread to the best of my abilities, but I have now run out of time. Maybe I missed it, but why should I not run a refugium? I was actually just about to build one for my tank. It's late and I'm tired so please excuse me if this is a stupid question that I simply missed the answer to.

Silentdea

· #472 · Mar 26, 2011

Themistocles88 said:
I've tried to skim through this massive thread to the best of my abilities, but I have now run out of time. Maybe I missed it, but why should I not run a refugium? I was actually just about to build one for my tank. It's late and I'm tired so please excuse me if this is a stupid question that I simply missed the answer to.

Same, I will read the whole entire post, but I can't right now. I would like to get some information on this too.

Elegance Coral

· #473 · Mar 26, 2011

Brad65ford said:
Looking great my man! Not sure your setup but is it what this thread about by keeping things simple? I'm just looking for pic/videos of those that follow these method of BB/Skimmer/LR only idea no fuge/macro algae/bioball/sand (substrat) etc..

The system I posted couldn't get much simpler. It does have sand, because that green anemone requires it. The only filtration is a 100 micron sock, changed daily, and two media reactors. One with carbon and one with phosphate remover. There isn't even a skimmer on this tank. With no skimmer, I'm forced to do more water changes than I would like. It does have an ATO that feeds through a DIY kalk reactor. I'm in the process of upgrading. The new system will have a large skimmer and sump, for added water volume.

Brad65ford

· #474 · Mar 26, 2011

Elegance Coral said:
The system I posted couldn't get much simpler. It does have sand, because that green anemone requires it. The only filtration is a 100 micron sock, changed daily, and two media reactors. One with carbon and one with phosphate remover. There isn't even a skimmer on this tank. With no skimmer, I'm forced to do more water changes than I would like. It does have an ATO that feeds through a DIY kalk reactor. I'm in the process of upgrading. The new system will have a large skimmer and sump, for added water volume.

Seems the only true way to remove all nutrients is a phosphat reactor or some type of fug macro algea/mangroves with out constain water changes. I keep asking for pics and videos of a tank that's thriving with out a sump and no fug or phosphate remover and I don't see anyone posting them. I do think water changes are good for keeping up with nutrient removal but I wonder how it effects the good bacteria of the system. If water changes made system thrive with just correct lighting then everyone could have killer looking tanks, something is a miss with this basic theory IMO. Again not saying it doesnt work I just don't think it makes it thrive.

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #475 · Mar 26, 2011 (Edited)

sand=phosphates. it does not get much simpler than that. no sand=no phosphates=no phosphate remover needed as long as you are able to remove all detritus when doing water changes.

here are some pics of my system: i need to post some more. these were all early in the growth of the corals. i preferred frags over full colonies. that way i can get them to grow into the environment.

Themistocles88-the thread was not meant to be skimmed. to much info. i would find time later to get through it to understand what is being said. once that is done, you will see why fuges, in the most commonly used way, are not necessary and in fact can raise your nutrient levels in the system. the simplest answer i can give you is. if the fuge can support life, then your system has nutrients in it. if the tank is clean then nothing will live in the fuge. you can use a fuge as a way to see how dirty your tank is if you like.

G~

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Brad65ford

· #476 · Mar 26, 2011

G your tank looks nice probably much better than my own. I guess its a dream when I see threads like this guy and say Oh-my-god is this possible. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1896006

Elegance Coral

· #477 · Mar 26, 2011

Brad65ford said:
Seems the only true way to remove all nutrients is a phosphat reactor or some type of fug macro algea/mangroves with out constain water changes. I keep asking for pics and videos of a tank that's thriving with out a sump and no fug or phosphate remover and I don't see anyone posting them. I do think water changes are good for keeping up with nutrient removal but I wonder how it effects the good bacteria of the system. If water changes made system thrive with just correct lighting then everyone could have killer looking tanks, something is a miss with this basic theory IMO. Again not saying it doesnt work I just don't think it makes it thrive.

You could run a very healthy system with water changes alone. Most of us don't want to change that much water though. The only thing that the use of equipment like skimmers, media reactors, mechanical filters, harvesting macro algae, and others do for us is extend the time between needed water changes.

This whole "natural" filtering stuff, that authors write about, has got people all worked up about their "good" bacteria. The bacteria are the strongest critters we have in our tanks. All of our livestock will be dead and gone long before something kills off our "good" bacteria. They are the last thing we need to be concerned about. Just don't pour a gallon of bleach in your tank, and your good bacteria will thrive. Water changes will not harm them.

Elegance Coral

· #478 · Mar 26, 2011

Geoff said:
sand=phosphates. it does not get much simpler than that. no sand=no phosphates=no phosphate remover needed........
G~

You knew I was gonna see this.:doh:

Sand doesn't equil phosphate. Detritus equals phosphate. If we are to say, sand equals phosphate, then we must also say that LR does as well. They are the same thing. Sand is nothing more than small LR's.

Phosphate remover is never "needed". We can always change more water or use other methods to remove it. Phosphate remover is just one tool that can be used for this purpose. The presence or absence of sand does not equate to the need for phosphate remover.

Brad65ford

· #479 · Mar 26, 2011

Elegance Coral said:
You could run a very healthy system with water changes alone. Most of us don't want to change that much water though. The only thing that the use of equipment like skimmers, media reactors, mechanical filters, harvesting macro algae, and others do for us is extend the time between needed water changes.

This whole "natural" filtering stuff, that authors write about, has got people all worked up about their "good" bacteria. The bacteria are the strongest critters we have in our tanks. All of our livestock will be dead and gone long before something kills off our "good" bacteria. They are the last thing we need to be concerned about. Just don't pour a gallon of bleach in your tank, and your good bacteria will thrive. Water changes will not harm them.

I'm not saying other wise, I do believe this thread is great and its true about reef "keeping" made easy. I think I'm looking for "reef sucess with thriving and flourishing coral growth made complex" thread once we have the basics down from this thread. I want what I can't achieve and I'm wondering how others do it?

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #480 · Mar 26, 2011

Sorry EC, you are right. The point I was trying to make is that the sand hides the detritus without you knowing. It is very difficult to keep the sand clean compared to LR. It is a lot more difficult to keep a clean system when there is sand.

Those pics are only with less then a years worth of growth. It takes about 3 years for any system to grow out to look like that. Corals with that much encrusting at the basses are going quite well. This hobby takes a lot of time to get the corals to a good size. Most can only grow a 1/4" a month.

The smaller the tank the less growth needed to fill in the tank.

G~

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