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Reefkeeping made easy- what was not explained.

899503 Views 1783 Replies 195 Participants Last post by  hackshobby
here are a few threads that were started in another forum about what is going on in our system. hopefully some of you all will read the information here and start to get a handle on what makes our systems work or not work. I know this may require some reading and those on the internet are allergic to reading threads that are not theirs, but give this thread a go. I am hoping that it will answer most of the questions you may have about reefkeeping. these first three posts may be a bit disjointed. as they came from the other thread. I will try and edit them so that they flow a bit better and lead into each other better.

the biggest things we will be discussing in this thread are the biological process that are going on in our systems. these biological process are what most of the false information that is out there is about. this includes reef forums and LFS. The two main elemental processes we will be discussing are the Nitrogen and Phosphate cycles that are occurring in our systems. these two elements lead to the greatest confusion about what is going on in our little slices of ocean.

There will be a lot of information in this thread. I will be linking to other threads with even more reading and papers on the subject at hand for even further reading. This hobby is easy if you understand what is going on, if you do not care to understand what is going on and listen to a lot of false information out there, then this hobby can be very frustrating and lots of wasted money.
I would anybody to ask questions if they need clarifications. I will try and keep things as short as possible to keep the reading down to a minimum, but some of this stuff is fairly long winded in general.

G~

UPDATE

A sort of Table of Contents for the thread. please feel free to PM any subjects or pages i should add to the contents.

Introduction: Page 1
Nitrogen cycle: Pages 1-2, 22
Phosphates: Page 3, 31
Sources of Phosphates: Page 3
Phosphate Cycle Graphics: Page 35
Early Tank Processes: Page 30
Problems with Sand: Page 4, 19
Sandbed Cleaning:page 7
DSB's: Page 9
BB Alternatives: Page 25
About LR: Page 8
LR Purging: Page 19, 26
Cured LR: Page 23
Tank Flow: Page 7
Light: Pages 13-15
Kalkwasser: Page 12, 17
Feeding: Pages 17-19
Zoax: Pages 15-17
Carbon Dosing: Pages 24-25
Tank Self Feeding: Page 27
Conservation of Matter: Page 28
Beer!: Pages 6-7
Bad Experts: Page 19
Definitions according to Spanky: Page 21
My Reference Links: Page 37
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a bit risky doing the continuous siphoning thing. that could have put back a load of phosphates back into the system. in general it is a better idea to only replace water with freshly made ASW. that way you are sure the water is phosphate free.

G~
+1 agreed on all 3. i just removed all my sand using a gravel vac and lowes bucket with a drain port on top. made it real easy with continuous syphoning of the water as it returned to tank. no dumping every 2 minutes heheh. now to finish with my rock and plumbing for BB set-up. so far the wife likes. and thats a good thing.
+1 that how I did it, only 80 gallons later:lol: but totally worth it.:freak:
here is one of those things that is not explained when first starting up a system. i thought i touched on this earlier, but i could not find it.

the nitrogen cycle is not the only process that occurs when a system is first started up. in fact i think that it is far less important than we are led to believe. this process is all about ramping up bacteria. the bacteria is already there. it only needs to food. it takes very little time for the bacteria to match what is in the system. i would be very surprised if it takes over a week for the bacteria to ramp up for any reasonable bioload change. yet this seems to be what everyone is most concerned about. do not get me wrong, making sure that there is not any ammonia and nitrite in the system is important, but i would bet that to get any ammonia or nitrite in any appreciable amount there must be something majorly bad going on in the system.

which brings me to the most noticeable process/cycle that goes on in our system. the silica and phosphate processes. both of these can lead to what i call the uglies. the uglies tend to start about 2-3 weeks after the tank is setup and can last several months depending on the amount of nutrients that were released during the setup process. the biggest culprits of this are silica, used by diatomic algae, and phosphates, which we know is used by cyano and other algae. both of these food sources are released during the mechanical process of setting up a system. phosphates and silica are everywhere. as bits of sand and LR rub against each other they break off little bits. these little bits allow the silica and phosphates to become loose in the water column. the more sand/LR the greater the chance of having more of these available right after the system is setup.

lets talk about silica. diatomic algae, the main algae you keep scrapping off the glass is diatomic. it uses silica in its body structure. in the beginning of a system, diatomic algae is the only real user of silica. it quickly is able to ramp up and bloom to use up significant amounts of the silica, hence the brown algae bloom encountered. over time as the tank matures the sponges will start growing under the LR. these sponges also need the silica and will quickly start uptaking the silica making it less available to the diatomic algae. soft corals and i believe LPS also use silicates in their structure. these critters bind up the silicates long term unlike the diatomic algae which reproduce and die fairly rapidly releasing and uptaking the silicates. until these binding organisms take off the diatomic algae bloom will continue.

out of time for now. i will get to the phosphates when i am back on.

G~
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Geoff, is there any way to avoid the new tank syndrome / bloom cycle?
+1 agreed on all 3. i just removed all my sand using a gravel vac and lowes bucket with a drain port on top. made it real easy with continuous syphoning of the water as it returned to tank. no dumping every 2 minutes heheh. now to finish with my rock and plumbing for BB set-up. so far the wife likes. and thats a good thing.
if your putting this "old" water back in your tank, few ideas maybe...
just use new asw or maybe run it by a sock filter, then some carbon and maybe some GFO???

GFO may work in this case since the PO4 is suspended in the water column, but I have not tested it.
Bummer

so i tried to siphon my sand the other day and no luck its too fine and i dont want to go bb so i will just have to siphon off the top
Geoff, is there any way to avoid the new tank syndrome / bloom cycle?
not entirely. if you rinse the items going into the system very well then you will remove most of the nutrients that will become immediately free.

if you are using base rock, then make sure to get anything loose off. during transportation the rocks bang against each other and can create a lot of loose material.

the sand is always going to be a balancing act. the more you rinse the more they grind against each other releasing more dust. it is good to give the sand a good strong rinsing to get the vast majority of the fines away. after that it is up to you to decide when to stop rinsing. you can go on forever and then end up with nothing. ;)

it is also very important to start with clean water. this is probably going to be the biggest batch of water you will add to the system. not putting in clean water at this point could really start the bloom off. what comes in on this water is immediately available to anything in the system.

G~
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so i tried to siphon my sand the other day and no luck its too fine and i dont want to go bb so i will just have to siphon off the top
this is a very common compromise. siphon on sections of the sand bed and replace when needed. if you go this route it is best if you can siphon the sand bed from below instead of from the top. that way when you are removing the sand you are also remove the nutrients trapped at the bottom and you are adding clean sand on top.

G~
you could always just wash the sand you remove with RO/DI water and return it to the system after it dries.
not entirely. if you rinse the items going into the system very well then you will remove most of the nutrients that will become immediately free.

if you are using base rock, then make sure to get anything loose off. during transportation the rocks bang against each other and can create a lot of loose material.

the sand is always going to be a balancing act. the more you rinse the more they grind against each other releasing more dust. it is good to give the sand a good strong rinsing to get the vast majority of the fines away. after that it is up to you to decide when to stop rinsing. you can go on forever and then end up with nothing. ;)

it is also very important to start with clean water. this is probably going to be the biggest batch of water you will add to the system. not putting in clean water at this point could really start the bloom off. what comes in on this water is immediately available to anything in the system.

G~
I don't know if this is a myth but I remember reading about the bigger the swing (nasty cycleing bloom) the stronger your tank is. Is this true?
sorry, had a busy weekend. phosphates

phosphates are a bit different. they do not really cycle, they kind of flux. they get bound and then "released" as organisms die and "feed" on them. bacteria are the fastest at being able to use them. then come the algae. phosphates come in through all kinds of means as we talked about earlier in this thread, here we will talk about the initial load of them and how they help cause the "uglies"

here you have this great empty system with all of these phosphates just floating around in the water column. all organisms need phosphates, so this is paradise for any organism. if the system has fresh LR, then it will be a race to the phosphates between the algae and the bacteria. because of all of the available phosphates both of these organisms can just grow like crazy until the free phosphates have been used up. as the phosphates are used up they are deposited on the substrate in a nice layer. this is where the cyano come in. they grown where they nutrients are, this is helpful to us because it gives us something to siphon. removing the cyano will remove the phosphates in its biomass. what we are waiting to happen to finally bring the "uglies" to an end is for the phosphate laden material to either be removed or sunk somewhere that is unavailable to the algae and bacteria. in all systems it works the same. in a BB system the free phosphates get bound up by the bacteria then fall to the bottom as bacterial flock, where it can be siphoned away or removed by the skimmer. even in a BB system it takes a while for the free phosphates to show up as something WE can see. until we can see it there is not really anything we can do. in a sand system we are waiting for the critters and bacteria to start populating the sand bed. the bacteria start to process the phosphates. in the process they wiggle the sand grains around causing the dead bacteria to fall further into the sand bed. the sand critters just help to speed this up since they are moving more of the grains around. eventually all of the free phosphates are sunk into the sand bed and the system is now only processing the phosphates that are added by feeding and things dying. an equilibrium has been achieved, for now.

i say flux because calcium carbonate binds phosphates. the bacteria are always trying to remove it and the calcium carbonate is always tying to bind it. so there is always a give and take going on here. :D

G~
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I don't know it this is a myth but I remember reading about the bigger the swing (nasty cycleing bloom) the stronger your tank is. Is this true?
it is only an indication of the amount of nutrients in the system. nothing more. i can see how some people would like to justify things that way. :D

G~
you could always just wash the sand you remove with RO/DI water and return it to the system after it dries.
i would not recommend this. the price of the filters needed to rinse the sand would probably be more than just buying new sand.

all sand comes with phosphates. i would hope that the sand you buy would have less than the sand that you got from the bottom of your sand bed.

drying the sand just stops the purging process. if you were able to suspend an entire sand column in water so that the phosphates laden bacterial flock is removed, then you could put the sand back in. sound familiar? a sand filter. a super nitrate factory.

G~
I figured that;) It all makes sense now. I'm still fighting swinging nitrate levels in my tank after I siphoned out my sand. I was told my live rock are like sponges that are still releasing the nitrates into the tank which is why all my water changes aren't making a different. Back to more water changes:(
i will also add that during this time of all of these free organics, that you could also see population blooms of other organisms that feed off the organisms that feed off the free phosphates. the most common of these being pods. there will be a large population of pods that will spike about the 6 month mark when a system is just setup. this population will ultimately crash by the 1 year mark and will settle out. it is very tempting to think you can support a pod eating fish when you see all of these pods, but that is a very short term bloom. this is why it is recommended to wait at least a year before determining if the pod population is large enough to support a predator.

G~
i was finally able to get my old website up. it has a lot of DIY's on it. they are all old. i was hoping i had my newer model kalk reactor.

i warn you, it is very old, and is not optimized for todays larger monitors. when i start building up my new system i will start up another website that will have all of the DIY's i use on the new system, plus the parallel threads in the DIY forum for more information.

here is the link.

G~
wow, Just read the whole site Geoff,

you know what my favorite part was?

the removal of your DSB!

Made me feel alright, I ran a DSB, Fuge and other things also in the past, but we live learn, and hopefully change our ways ;)

the text in your Sig "Friends Don't Let Friends Use Refugiums!" is first had of dealing with one, thats real knowledge there, not just an opinion!
that was one annoying day, the removal of the DSB. it went bad faster than normal because of all of the Fe that my well water was getting into my system from the water filter not working properly.

looking at the website and then looking at the build thread, they are quite different. even though the glass box was the same.

G~
I have a lot of reading to do, but im still in class.
Finally man!!!!!!! dang it was boring without ya!

yes you do (lot to read), also read the weekly topics as well ;)
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