Reefkeeping made easy- what was not explained.

899503 Views 1783 Replies 195 Participants Last post by hackshobby, Aug 5, 2017

Geoff

Discussion Starter · Jan 17, 2011 (Edited)

here are a few threads that were started in another forum about what is going on in our system. hopefully some of you all will read the information here and start to get a handle on what makes our systems work or not work. I know this may require some reading and those on the internet are allergic to reading threads that are not theirs, but give this thread a go. I am hoping that it will answer most of the questions you may have about reefkeeping. these first three posts may be a bit disjointed. as they came from the other thread. I will try and edit them so that they flow a bit better and lead into each other better.

the biggest things we will be discussing in this thread are the biological process that are going on in our systems. these biological process are what most of the false information that is out there is about. this includes reef forums and LFS. The two main elemental processes we will be discussing are the Nitrogen and Phosphate cycles that are occurring in our systems. these two elements lead to the greatest confusion about what is going on in our little slices of ocean.

There will be a lot of information in this thread. I will be linking to other threads with even more reading and papers on the subject at hand for even further reading. This hobby is easy if you understand what is going on, if you do not care to understand what is going on and listen to a lot of false information out there, then this hobby can be very frustrating and lots of wasted money.
I would anybody to ask questions if they need clarifications. I will try and keep things as short as possible to keep the reading down to a minimum, but some of this stuff is fairly long winded in general.

G~

UPDATE

A sort of Table of Contents for the thread. please feel free to PM any subjects or pages i should add to the contents.

Introduction: Page 1
Nitrogen cycle: Pages 1-2, 22
Phosphates: Page 3, 31
Sources of Phosphates: Page 3
Phosphate Cycle Graphics: Page 35
Early Tank Processes: Page 30
Problems with Sand: Page 4, 19
Sandbed Cleaning

age 7
DSB's: Page 9
BB Alternatives: Page 25
About LR: Page 8
LR Purging: Page 19, 26
Cured LR: Page 23
Tank Flow: Page 7
Light: Pages 13-15
Kalkwasser: Page 12, 17
Feeding: Pages 17-19
Zoax: Pages 15-17
Carbon Dosing: Pages 24-25
Tank Self Feeding: Page 27
Conservation of Matter: Page 28
Beer!: Pages 6-7
Bad Experts: Page 19
Definitions according to Spanky: Page 21
My Reference Links: Page 37

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401 - 420 of 1784 Posts

Nate_Bro

· #401 · Feb 23, 2011

now I have a 100g pond in my back yard, I don't feed it, or clean the floor of it, but I do top offs and run a fountain.

the fish eat the bugs, algae, plants that grow in the pond, I don't add anything, but I do take out leaves, or other foreign organic objects.

now I have had 3 ponds and I when I have moved I took the fish, rocks (filter), rubbermaid water trough and plants with me. so with the moves, this pond is well over 25 years old. I do add tap water to the pond, but when I move I wash out the bin, I guess this has kept it from filling up with TDS from the tap water.

I have not had green water in this pond but twice, and that was only for a week.

Brad65ford

· #402 · Feb 24, 2011

I hate to cross post but after reading this other thread its basicly what is stated here in this thread but just scaled down for an easier understanding. All these other add ons to remove waste like refu, sumps, micro alge, mangros etc.. is pointless if you remove waste with water changes, right? This is a good read since it explains reefing success in a smaller scale which actually seems simpler to achieve than larger reef tanks since they can be 100 percent water changed. Only thing I can't understand is he has a dsb?

http://www.livingreefs.com/new-pico-reef-3-years-old-1-gallon-vase-t19119.html

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #403 · Feb 24, 2011

you are correct. it is all about removing the phosphates before they can become a problem. DSB's are fantastic phosphate sponges. they can suck up a lot of phosphates before they start leaching them back into the system. as with any kind of sponge/filter it will need to be emptied. they give a lot of slop factor. you can become lax in maintenance and it will not bite you in the butt for quite a while. for really small systems, regular large water changes and sand replacements will work quite well.

Nate_Bro-i guess it all depends on what you define as sustainable. you probably could create a lagoon type system that could keep some life in it. small ponds do seem self sufficient, but i would not want to look into one as if it were a tank. the water is no where near clear. they are phosphate traps.

G~

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reddogf5

· #404 · Feb 25, 2011

Hi, I'm new here, and have read through this thread, and many of the linked threads. I would like to know if this accurately summarizes the ideas put forth in Geoff's thread, and the referenced ones. Thanks.

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Nate_Bro

· #405 · Feb 25, 2011

Wow, welcome to TRT, and thanks for reading!
Its great to see someones first post in here, goes to show someone is doing their home work!

Nate_Bro

· #406 · Feb 25, 2011

reddogf5 said:
Hi, I'm new here, and have read through this thread, and many of the linked threads. I would like to know if this accurately summarizes the ideas put forth in Geoff's thread, and the referenced ones. Thanks.

this is good, IMO

its just the last part scares me a little, adding the phytoplankton the absorb the inorganic PO4 so that is can be skimmed out, but if you clean, and siphon the tank well, you will not need to add in more nutrients (phytoplankton), just to absorb the PO4, and in the end hope you skimmed out all the old inorganic, PO4 along with ALL the plankton you just added.

Its kinda like panning for gold, yes it makes it easier if you add mercury to the pan and attract the gold, but what about the mercury that is released out of the pan and into the river...

not only did you gather more gold, then without the mercury, but you also leached some mercury into the water causing some problems down the road...

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reddogf5

· #407 · Feb 25, 2011

Ha! Well, I can't defend the phytoplankton (or most of the other stuff), I took it from some of the other posts. That particular bit came from a "Spanky the Border Collie" post, and he seemed to be a primary driver behind this whole approach. I just want to see if my understanding is close.

Nate_Bro

· #408 · Feb 25, 2011

Well that makes sense, sounds like something Spanky would say.

I'm just a fellow student in this thread, but I would say you have to right Idea (understanding) there

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #409 · Feb 25, 2011

reddogf5- Welcome to TRT!!!

:wavey:

not bad bit of summarizing.

a couple things to clarify.

do you have a link to where that Spanky quote is? i can not place which thread it is in. i can not tell which context it was about. interesting use of phytoplankton. a nutrient export tool instead of food, which is what people think, though i am not sure the phyto could reproduce that fast to actually uptake that much phosphate to be useable.

detritus gets into the sand bed through various means. gravity and also bacterial turgor moves the grains around and causes the flock to work its way down.

more reading about the phosphates being incorporated into calcium carbonate. i have not had a chance to read through it completely yet.

very nice.

G~

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bigredmachine

· #410 · Feb 25, 2011

slick idea. i wish i could see that pic you linked nate. i tried to supersize it and the fries came out all wong!

Nate_Bro

· #411 · Feb 25, 2011

bigredmachine said:
slick idea. i wish i could see that pic you linked nate. i tried to supersize it and the fries came out all wong!

go to the page before this, thats where I linked from

bearheaton51

· #412 · Feb 25, 2011

holy cow that is a lot of pipe 70 miles holy cow!!!!!!! I would be dreaming about plumbing if I was doing that system, glad it wasn't me lol!!!!

reddogf5

· #413 · Feb 26, 2011

Geoff said:
do you have a link to where that Spanky quote is? i can not place which thread it is in. i can not tell which context it was about. interesting use of phytoplankton. a nutrient export tool instead of food, which is what people think, though i am not sure the phyto could reproduce that fast to actually uptake that much phosphate to be useable.

Now you got my doubting my memory. I didn't have the link in OneNote, but went and found it just to make sure:
It is in the thread Some funny misconceptions I've read about DSB's, post 108 (the forum won't let me post a link because my post count is too low)

Crazy_About_Salt

· #414 · Feb 26, 2011

just post 2 more, and it should let you...

or just put a space between the http:// so it looks like this h ttp://....

Nate_Bro

· #415 · Feb 26, 2011

hmmm....

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic66381-11-1.aspx

what was even said here??

Brad65ford

· #416 · Feb 26, 2011

Nate_Bro said:
hmmm....

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic66381-11-1.aspx

what was even said here??

Oh boy, think he want to post over here..... ahh I doubt it. Wow that was 4 years ago.

bigredmachine

· #417 · Feb 26, 2011

reddogf5 said:
Hi, I'm new here, and have read through this thread, and many of the linked threads. I would like to know if this accurately summarizes the ideas put forth in Geoff's thread, and the referenced ones. Thanks.

well POOP! lol. ive never shut off my skimmer when feeding phyto... so yeah i been wasting it away i see hahah wow... go me.

thanks for that link reddog appreciate it. pics always help me

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #418 · Feb 26, 2011

that thread was back in the thick of it. people were really starting to call him out on his poor science.

i believe that is where he went after being kicked off of RC.

G~

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #419 · Feb 26, 2011

reddogf5 said:
Now you got my doubting my memory. I didn't have the link in OneNote, but went and found it just to make sure:
It is in the thread Some funny misconceptions I've read about DSB's, post 108 (the forum won't let me post a link because my post count is too low)

keep posting buddy.

here is a link to the page with post 108.

ok. i think i understand what Spanky is getting at. if you use phyto and dump it into the water column with the pumps off, the phyto is right there in the display in all of the light. it is able to uptake any phosphates that are in the water column. if you were to now turn on the skimmer all of these gorged phyto will hopefully get skimmed out. the problem is, that if any of them are not skimmed out and end up dying then they release not only the phosphates they come in with, but also those that they absorbed before dying. hence the comment about storing it and waiting then the phosphates would be off the chart.

any other interpretations?

dang, i feel like i am in a Literature class again.

G~

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #420 · Feb 26, 2011

let me get this straight in this thread since this is talking about how to reefkeep as easily as possible.

i believe i have never said that the only way you can run a successful reef is only if it is BB. the whole point of this thread is to show that in order to have a successful reef long term you need to take out the trash. you have to export as much waste as food going into the tank, nothing more. this thread and what i talk about are the easiest/least expensive ways i know to accomplish this and why what we have been told can make this difficult.

i only ask that people really think through what they are doing? does it make sense? does it defy the law of conservation of matter? if something is growing, it must be getting nutrients. find the nutrients and remove them. feed only the critters you want to keep. everything else will end up in the waste bin, hopefully the waste bin is easy to clean. the easier the waste bin is to clean the more likely you will clean it. just common sense.

G~

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