Reefkeeping made easy- what was not explained.

899497 Views 1783 Replies 195 Participants Last post by hackshobby, Aug 5, 2017

Geoff

Discussion Starter · Jan 17, 2011 (Edited)

here are a few threads that were started in another forum about what is going on in our system. hopefully some of you all will read the information here and start to get a handle on what makes our systems work or not work. I know this may require some reading and those on the internet are allergic to reading threads that are not theirs, but give this thread a go. I am hoping that it will answer most of the questions you may have about reefkeeping. these first three posts may be a bit disjointed. as they came from the other thread. I will try and edit them so that they flow a bit better and lead into each other better.

the biggest things we will be discussing in this thread are the biological process that are going on in our systems. these biological process are what most of the false information that is out there is about. this includes reef forums and LFS. The two main elemental processes we will be discussing are the Nitrogen and Phosphate cycles that are occurring in our systems. these two elements lead to the greatest confusion about what is going on in our little slices of ocean.

There will be a lot of information in this thread. I will be linking to other threads with even more reading and papers on the subject at hand for even further reading. This hobby is easy if you understand what is going on, if you do not care to understand what is going on and listen to a lot of false information out there, then this hobby can be very frustrating and lots of wasted money.
I would anybody to ask questions if they need clarifications. I will try and keep things as short as possible to keep the reading down to a minimum, but some of this stuff is fairly long winded in general.

G~

UPDATE

A sort of Table of Contents for the thread. please feel free to PM any subjects or pages i should add to the contents.

Introduction: Page 1
Nitrogen cycle: Pages 1-2, 22
Phosphates: Page 3, 31
Sources of Phosphates: Page 3
Phosphate Cycle Graphics: Page 35
Early Tank Processes: Page 30
Problems with Sand: Page 4, 19
Sandbed Cleaning

age 7
DSB's: Page 9
BB Alternatives: Page 25
About LR: Page 8
LR Purging: Page 19, 26
Cured LR: Page 23
Tank Flow: Page 7
Light: Pages 13-15
Kalkwasser: Page 12, 17
Feeding: Pages 17-19
Zoax: Pages 15-17
Carbon Dosing: Pages 24-25
Tank Self Feeding: Page 27
Conservation of Matter: Page 28
Beer!: Pages 6-7
Bad Experts: Page 19
Definitions according to Spanky: Page 21
My Reference Links: Page 37

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21 - 40 of 1784 Posts

Ntvper

· #21 · Jan 19, 2011

Geoff said:
i am not sure that is the case. i do not think that the depth of the anoxic layer changes within the sand bed or the LR. i do not think that the percentage of O2 in the system can change by enough to cause much fluctuation in the anoxic depth. i will see if i can find any info on that though, it is a good point. as long as there is very little flow in an area it does not take much to make it go anoxic. hence the problem if the power ever goes out in our systems. so those little nooks and crannies in the LR can easily create anoxic layers below the areas processing the ammonia and nitrite.

you can even see the N2 bubbles forming on the the LR and releasing into the water column.

G~

i beg to differ with exchange rate of O2 in the system is high considerable with those with a sump. ever watch the agitation on the sump flow and yet my refugium doesnt have any anoxic taking place under that sand bed. and if you pay close attention lets say my tank which has high flows in the middle and back of the tank sand bed of 2-4 inches in various amounts then there is actually no anoxic taking place in those areas within the LR or sandbed. my dead spots with the same or even less sandbed have anoxic occurring which is present (i presume) by the bubbles under the sand. but I do see more bubbles in the deeper sand compared to the 1 inch on the same side. so depth does make a difference. more so i think because of the surface area. make sense?

Ntvper

· #22 · Jan 19, 2011

Fat Tony said:
Ok between the two different posts on N2, Im kinda confused....

Nitrate is broken down in the anoxic regions/anaerobic layers in the tank into free Nitrogen gas (N2) which normally can be seen bubbling up out of a tank with a medium to deep sandbed....

The more oxygen saturated the tank is, the deeper the anoxic zones are...

oops no delete button lol. meaning i was gonna say something but i think i already said it in the other post but still this thing posted just the quote. so erase erase erase.

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #23 · Jan 19, 2011

it could, i am not saying it does not. i just was not able to find any papers to help in determining this fact for sure. either way the difference is going to be very small unless you are getting serious movement in the sand creating dunes in the system. this would absolutely make a difference in the anoxic layer by several inches. though with little substrate movement i would think the anoxic layer would not change by much more than a few mm.

G~

scbrooks87

· #24 · Jan 19, 2011

Just to make sure I'm following along properly... The discussion right now has moved to trying to determine if deeper sand and lower flow will create a "thicker" (if you will) anoxic layer in the sandbed? The anoxic layer being the means by which our nitrates can be broken down into nitrogen?

Sorry for the silly question, but I will admit I have a harder time remembering the chemical names (N2, NO3, etc...) and so I try to piece it together, but that's my only major setback right now lol.

-Scott

FutureDoc

· #25 · Jan 19, 2011

But here is the "Question"... are we trying to use the anoxic layer in tanks as the main/supplementary means of nitrate removal. There are other drawbacks/risks to using this compared to other methods. Also substrate particle size will affect ability for O2 to penetrate.

Ntvper: Not using the term "anoxic" is what messed with me, I thought the process was stated to be was in the water column...:lol:

wharyat

· #26 · Jan 19, 2011

These same anoxic layers exist in live rock too, otherwise we'd never get rid on NO3 in bare bottom systems.

I would consider these layers in live rock to be much "safer" than the layers in a DSB as they can be easily purged by cooking or just maintaining a level of N & P input that won't overload them.

The reason DSBs sour is a build up of waste that cannot be processed and inevitably is populated by hydrogen sulfide producing bacteria. The HS2 reaches critical mass and kills everything in the tank. This is my understanding at least.

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #27 · Jan 19, 2011

Vince is right on. the LR itself is a much more efficient means of processing the nitrates instead of a sand bed.

Ntvper could have a point in trying to find the most efficient depth for a sand bed in the system.

Scott- you are correct. the deeper the sand bed does not allow more nitrates to be processed. that is what people think, but in reality the nitrates can not get down to those layers because the nitrates just can not get there. the nitrates that are processed are coming from the layers above and any additional nitrates that could get through are already being processed. if more were to get there, that would mean that O2 rich water was getting to that area, which would hinder the conversion of the nitrates to N2

ammonia=NH3
Nitrite=NO2
Nitrate=NO3-
Nitrogen Gas=N2

a decent little blurb i came across.

G~

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Geoff

Discussion Starter · #28 · Jan 19, 2011

ok, onto everyones favorite topic, even though 90% of aquarists do not realize it: phosphates.

what are they and why do we care about them? why does nobody seem to know about them. what is it with LFS/web boards and the complete lack of knowledge about this one element which causes so much grief to all aquarists?

things may get confusing in here. please use quotes when necessary to keep everyone on track of where you are coming from. feel free to bounce back to the nitrogen cycle when necessary if more clarification is needed.

G~

scbrooks87

· #29 · Jan 19, 2011

Geoff- Thanks a bunch for replying... Glad I'm keeping up with this... It's a topic that I thought I understood, but I'm learning a lot from this thread... Now hopefully, since I know so little about phosphates (basically nothing) I will be able to keep up with this as it moves that direction. I tried to do some homework last night, and read up on the "phosphate" cycle, but it's so difficult to understand what all is going on with the different types of phosphates, so hopefully this thread will help clarify it on a level that even the beginner (myself) can understand!

Thanks again! I'm along for this ride!
-Scott

scbrooks87

· #30 · Jan 19, 2011

Oh and I just got done reading the blurb you linked in your post Geoff... Good stuff man, Definitely a good breakdown, in common language, of the nitrogen cycle.

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #31 · Jan 19, 2011

there were some monster names in the hobby that called this place home. i would hang on for dear life in The Think Tank forum. i would have the time to go into the General forum and explain the topics so that everyone else could understand. i would do searches on my own to help me keep up and i would keep the links to those that i could understand and i would think others would also.

work got a hold of me today. i have not had the chance to study up on all of my reference threads to really get into the Phosphates yet, i will do more reading when i get home to make sure i keep it all straight once you all start really asking the questions. TRT will be posting a new sticky at the top of the forum which will contain our favorite reference links. where i have gotten 99% of my information. i am not really that smart. i had just been in reefing so long that none of it was making any sense till around 2003 when the whole sand thing started blowing up.

G~

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dmora723

· #32 · Jan 19, 2011

i cant believe i missed this thread.... and its a great one.
i hope to get like that. i have only been reefing for a year, FO for a few years. my dad has been reefing since i was born tho he stopped 3 years ago.
im only 19 now, planing to major in marine bio and minor in business. so i got much to learn, and a long time to build experience.

Nate_Bro

· #33 · Jan 19, 2011

dmora723 said:
planing to major in marine bio

I wanted too do that but things came up, and funding went down, and i missed on the dream job last year because of it! :doh:

oh well there is still time to go back to school, I'm not dead yet, haha

Geoff
I really want to know more about PO4, its not something thats talked a lot about. Nitrates seem to be the biggest thing people talk about....

I'm really looking forward to a better PO4 knowledge!

scbrooks87

· #34 · Jan 19, 2011

This hobby has really made me re-consider my choices for my professional life... I was considering starting a program in Marine Biology, but before I can do that... I gotta figure out how to make some real money to pay for that education lol.

Ntvper

· #35 · Jan 20, 2011

Nate_Bro said:
I wanted too do that but things came up, and funding went down, and i missed on the dream job last year because of it! :doh:

oh well there is still time to go back to school, I'm not dead yet, haha

Geoff
I really want to know more about PO4, its not something thats talked a lot about. Nitrates seem to be the biggest thing people talk about....

I'm really looking forward to a better PO4 knowledge!

heres is a brief explanation of phosphate. i know its wikipedia but it is fact that i can back up with other journals. and while it only touches on the soluble kind and non soluble kind it brings up an interesting question of why phos removal is a good thing in our tanks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphate

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #36 · Jan 20, 2011

i saw that one, but was kinda hoping for a little easier one to start with. i am brushing up on my phosphate chemistry again. i am not good at this part of the process. i want to lump the phosphates together, but i am afraid it will confuse everyone, but then trying to keep the two separate is going to be tough for me. i may just start going and hopefully the more chemistry minded will quickly correct me when i get the two mixed up. it should not happen that often, but phosphates are confusing enough as it is.

anywho. phosphates are needed for all life. they come in two forms orthophosphates and inorganic phosphates. one of the reasons why it has taken so long for us to put the blame on phosphates for tank crashes and other problems is that phosphates are hard to test for. for a very long time phosphate tests were very expensive because nobody know to even test for them. then there was the problem that the test kits at the time would only test for orthophosphates. the problem here is that the cyano/algae/bacteria all want this and will uptake it immediately. it is hard to get any reading when testing for orthophosphates in a working system. you could have a decent sized algae farm in your reef and yet your phosphate test kit would read 0. when you are actually getting a reading means that all of the bacteria in your system has bound all of the orthophosphates it can and now there is some free in the water column.

orthophosphates (i will use phosphates for this) are what algae and the bacteria are looking for for energy to live. it is limiting in the system. if you have very little, you will have very little available for the algae/cyano. the higher critters will be getting the phosphates they need through the food you give them. we get our phosphates through our mouths. algae and the bacteria get it through their surfaces. if you can virtually eliminate it from the water column then you virtually eliminate the algae/cyano.

make sense so far?

G~

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Nate_Bro

· #37 · Jan 20, 2011

Don't stop now, the pop-corn has not even finished.......

BTW, perfect sense to me..

Geoff

Discussion Starter · #38 · Jan 20, 2011

ok, just one more, though more audience participation time.

we know that all food contains phosphates. they can actually contain both types of phosphates. not overly important, though i thought it should be mentioned. what other sources can you think of for phosphates?

hint: start naming everything you have ever thought of to put in your tank.

G~

Elegance Coral

· #39 · Jan 20, 2011

Ntvper said:
i beg to differ with exchange rate of O2 in the system is high considerable with those with a sump. ever watch the agitation on the sump flow and yet my refugium doesnt have any anoxic taking place under that sand bed. and if you pay close attention lets say my tank which has high flows in the middle and back of the tank sand bed of 2-4 inches in various amounts then there is actually no anoxic taking place in those areas within the LR or sandbed. my dead spots with the same or even less sandbed have anoxic occurring which is present (i presume) by the bubbles under the sand. but I do see more bubbles in the deeper sand compared to the 1 inch on the same side. so depth does make a difference. more so i think because of the surface area. make sense?

It's really really hard, if not impossible, to simply look at one aspect of the tank and determine its effect on the system as a whole. There are many many different things going on in even the simplest of systems. If you have a sand bed in a fuge, and the tank does well, you have no way of knowing if the sand bed had anything to do with it or not. The same thing goes for a system that does poorly. It's more important to understand the science behind whats going on, or what may go on, in the system. This is the only way to understand what's really going on in the system. You see bubbles and assume they are N2. This may not be the case. Photosynthetic organisms in the sand can produce O2 bubbles. Without testing the bubbles, we have no way of knowing what they contain. We need to be very cautious about looking in our tanks and making assumptions based on what we see, without understanding the science behind it. I like the rubber ducky analogy. If I float a rubber ducky in my tank and it does well, does that prove that rubber duckies are good for our systems?

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Geoff

Discussion Starter · #40 · Jan 20, 2011 (Edited)

ok. lets speed this up a bit. sorry, i have been a bit out of practice on this after 2 years off.

ok, so we know phosphates are important for life. it would make sense that we would know the best places to find it for our needs. does anybody want to guess where we get phosphates from in bulk?

use this to get you started.

G~

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