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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In this thread,
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=44849
everyone is discussing Alfalfa's BB tank, with no fish, no LR and no feeding, this tank has high flow, a big skimmer, and a UV.

The jist of this thread seems to be that the coral will do great, there will be plenty of phospate from the plastic, and plenty of light, with that the coral can make there own food. It also seems to be agreed that the coral will love the water quality in this tank.

Then there is this thread, my thread:
http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74571
Where the fact that I am not feeding enough times per day is thought to be the problem.

There is no doubt that feeding works, it worked for you, it works for most of the TOTM's (almost evey one I have read here and on the other side says they feed too much) but what is wrong with my corals that they can't make their own food?:rolleyes:

See what happens when I spend the day reading insted of tinkering with my tank? :lol:

Thanks,
Whiskey
 

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Whiskey,

It seems to me that you have something else going on (or not going on) in your tank that people are missing. Perhaps, and this is just a suggestion, you should make a list (a long detailed list) of everything (perhaps chronologically) that you have done or not done to your tank(s) in the last 4 months. You should include all materials and compounds (ETC...) involved in it.

I am curious, though, because I haven't had time to be on here much lately, are your corals dying, receiding, staying the same, slow growing, not coloring up or what? I am fully aware that you are disatisfied with something.


Sorry, for bustin in on this like this.
 

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Here's a quote. If this is right then there does have to be food added to the tank somehow. I'd have to tend to agree, we need to feed.


" The secret to the success of the coral reefs is commonly believed to be the “tight recycling of nutrients” in the system, particularly in the corals, in which tiny plants and animals live together in a symbiosis that conserves key nutrients quite effectively. Algae (zooxanthellae), living inside the tissues of the cnidarian host, harness energy from sunlight and “fix carbon” by photosynthesis. Energy from this source is provided to the polyp host in return for exclusive access to the waste-nutrients produced by the host. These wastes (N and P) function to fertilize the algae. The most significant, and apparently “limiting” nutrient in the picture is fixed nitrogen, a critical element in the construction of all proteins. The symbiotic arrangement allows the partners to avoid the loss of fixed N to the water, a process that normally occurs in both free floating algae and solo-living marine animal lifeforms. In larger marine systems, overall fixed N is essentially passed back and forth between the plant and animal compartments of the community - corals have evolved a way to capture and complete this loop inside their own special symbiosis. It’s a micro-model of what happens in the bigger picture, and the same principle applies in the more “nutrient” rich systems of the temperate and polar zones. Plants and animals perpetually passing the precious ball (fixed N) back and forth - it’s a common theme in all living systems on the planet.

It is definitely an efficient plan for conserving nutrients, but the coral-algae symbiosis cannot live on sunshine, CO2 and water alone. A net input of N and P is still essential to maintaining life and growth, and all corals have feeding strategies in addition to deriving energy from their plant partners. The partners have the ability to extract dissolved bio-available N from the water at low ambient levels, and also they capture and consume microscopic prey (zooplankton) as well as bacteria and particles of edible detritus that come into contact with their mucus layer. In short, corals also need to eat to live. "
 

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tell me about it. i am having a heck of a time keeping enough food in my tank. :( i am feeding flake every day for the few corals i have in there. i was really hoping that i would get some algae blooms, but nothing. setting a tank up completely from base rock is a bit different than with LR. ;)

G~
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
three90s&125sump said:
Whiskey,

It seems to me that you have something else going on (or not going on) in your tank that people are missing. Perhaps, and this is just a suggestion, you should make a list (a long detailed list) of everything (perhaps chronologically) that you have done or not done to your tank(s) in the last 4 months. You should include all materials and compounds (ETC...) involved in it.
Do you have any idea how long this list would be? :p I will cut to the major ones.
New skimmer (MR-2 on PCX 55)
Re-plum skimmer at least 3 times
Messed with the sump
Replaced the sump
Re-plumed the return
went from 1 MH bulb to 2
moved the MH up and down at least 8 times
Added, repositioned, and took away atinics
Eventually I just switched to T5's
Cooling upgrades
Return pump change
Added the last Seio
Added and removed various maxijets
coral in and out
There is probably allot more, but I can't really remember changes after 2 months ago.

I am curious, though, because I haven't had time to be on here much lately, are your corals dying, receiding, staying the same, slow growing, not coloring up or what? I am fully aware that you are disatisfied with something.
I have seen growth in a couple of corals, but for the most part I get frags, they encrust at first, then less polyp extension, then STN from the base, eventually RTN. Every time this happens I make a major system change because I figure if one coral died whatever was wrong is probably going to kill the rest too. It is always older coral that goes, usually after being in my system at least 4 months.

Now I am leaving the system alone, and just moving the dieing corals out.
Sorry, for bustin in on this like this.
No, please do bust in, that is what these forums are all about.

Thanks,
Whiskey
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Mike O'Brien said:
Here's a quote. If this is right then there does have to be food added to the tank somehow. I'd have to tend to agree, we need to feed.
I think you are right, one thing all the successful tanks seem to have in common is what the owners would consider excessive feeding, this is why I was so surprised to come across that other thread.

Thanks,
Whiskey
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Geoff said:
tell me about it. i am having a heck of a time keeping enough food in my tank. :( i am feeding flake every day for the few corals i have in there. i was really hoping that i would get some algae blooms, but nothing. setting a tank up completely from base rock is a bit different than with LR. ;)

G~
I wonder how cooked rock compares to base rock in this? I am getting a little more algae after excessively feeding lately, so I am going to back off on the amount I feed, but not the frequency. I am also going to let the algae go, it should be a good guide.

Do you have any fish in this tank?

Thanks,
Whiskey
 

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Whiskey,

I hate to say it but, I think your water is too clean. That MR-2 is huge and if your not feeding anything they will starve to death. I feed my 40 breeder about 1/4 of a cube of mysis 3 times per week. I don't have much of a skimmer and I have a DSB. The last time I measured my nitrates they were in the neighborhood of 40. I don't have any HA, and I use tap water for top off. The growth I am getting out of my candy coral is great and coloration is phenomenal.


I would say that on the flip side if you begin to feed heavily you may have an ammonia spike.

My advise is simple enough, too. Have many, many patience and leave it sit. Possibly turn off your overflow during feedings to reduce the actual amount of food you are putting into the system while increasing the amount your animals are getting. Maybe reduce your head hieght in your skimmer just a tad. Go by some cheap acro frags of the same type and place them in varying depths of the tank and watch... and watch some more. Only make one adjustment at a time and wait it out to see how that worked for you. Its like troubleshooting anything else: you can guage the success or failure of a perticular adjustment ONLY if you know what that perticular adjustment was.

You wouldn't happen to live near Chicago would you?


Good luck whiskey,
Jason.
 

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that base rock i am using was from my previous setup. a fairly correctly setup BB, so this LR has been cooked. i know it is pretty good, because a friend of mine took a couple of pieces and put them in his tank when i took my down and those pieces of LR never grew algae like the others in his tank.

i do not have any fish in the tank at all right now. i am trying to wait until i get back from a couple of week long Bike rides this summer before truely stocking the system. it takes time to get fish fat and happy enough that you can leave them for a week without to much worry. just do not have the time right now to do that and feel comfortable about it.

right now i put in a small pinch of flake to get those food levels up. it is helping some, but i need to put more in. not sure what i am going to do when i am gone.

G~
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
three90s&125sump said:
Whiskey,

I hate to say it but, I think your water is too clean. That MR-2 is huge and if your not feeding anything they will starve to death. I feed my 40 breeder about 1/4 of a cube of mysis 3 times per week. I don't have much of a skimmer and I have a DSB. The last time I measured my nitrates they were in the neighborhood of 40. I don't have any HA, and I use tap water for top off. The growth I am getting out of my candy coral is great and coloration is phenomenal.


I would say that on the flip side if you begin to feed heavily you may have an ammonia spike.

My advise is simple enough, too. Have many, many patience and leave it sit. Possibly turn off your overflow during feedings to reduce the actual amount of food you are putting into the system while increasing the amount your animals are getting. Maybe reduce your head hieght in your skimmer just a tad. Go by some cheap acro frags of the same type and place them in varying depths of the tank and watch... and watch some more. Only make one adjustment at a time and wait it out to see how that worked for you. Its like troubleshooting anything else: you can guage the success or failure of a perticular adjustment ONLY if you know what that perticular adjustment was.

You wouldn't happen to live near Chicago would you?


Good luck whiskey,
Jason.
I think you are right,... What I am doing right now is trying to feed the tank more, as you and a number of other people have suggested. Starting the end of last week I have been feeding 3 times per day, rather than one, I feed when I leave for work, when I get home, and when I go to bed. I have also cranked up the skimmer to make sure I get the food out again, and it does not sit and rot.

I am going to use micro algae as my guide, and any coral that does bad gets yanked, no more system changes, or I just might get banned :agree: .

I live in Phoenix AZ.

Thanks,
Whiskey
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Geoff said:
that base rock i am using was from my previous setup. a fairly correctly setup BB, so this LR has been cooked. i know it is pretty good, because a friend of mine took a couple of pieces and put them in his tank when i took my down and those pieces of LR never grew algae like the others in his tank.

i do not have any fish in the tank at all right now. i am trying to wait until i get back from a couple of week long Bike rides this summer before truely stocking the system. it takes time to get fish fat and happy enough that you can leave them for a week without to much worry. just do not have the time right now to do that and feel comfortable about it.

right now i put in a small pinch of flake to get those food levels up. it is helping some, but i need to put more in. not sure what i am going to do when i am gone.

G~
You could get one of those auto feeders, a cheap one can be had for about $20, and it will feed 2 times per day. I use one to feed a FW 10 gallon tank that is not easy to get to. The only problem with them is if you have bug problems, the bugs get in there and eat the fish food, then the feeder feeds the fish the bugs. This is not how they are supposed to work, but the result seems to be the same.

Are you touring the country on a motorcycle, or riding a pedal bike? There are a few people at work that are into these week long motorcycle ralies, with the check points, long range bikes, dual GPS, CB, AUX tanks etc,.. Quite a setup. When I ride to San Diego I have to stop every 100 miles for gas :rolleyes: .

Thanks,
Whiskey
 

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Here is another feeding quote, this one from our favorite sandbed expert Dr. Ron.


While zooxanthellae provide nutrient to corals, they provide it only in the form of sugar, and while sugar can provide the energy for coral growth, it cannot provide the raw materials for coral growth. All animal tissue, and coral tissue is no exception, is made mostly of proteins, and proteins are made of amino acids. Each amino acid has, as its core, an amine or ammonia group built around a nitrogen atom.

All organisms can use sugars to provide the energy to utilize amino acids and to make or breakdown proteins, but the nitrogen for this process must come from some other source than photosynthesis. Zooxanthellae live inside coral cells, and are bathed in the cytoplasm or internal fluid of that cell. This fluid is rich in amino acids, and zooxanthellae can absorb, eat or incorporate those animal amino acids into themselves and use them to make proteins. These, in turn, may be used by the coral in part of its growth.

Aquarists often think that their corals produce a skeleton made of pure calcium carbonate, in the form of aragonite. This is not actually the case; the skeleton is actually formed of an organic matrix and calcium carbonate crystals deposited in two closely-linked phases. Initially, a fibrous proteinaceous matrix is laid down. Subsequently, the calcium carbonate is precipitated onto this matrix. There is some evidence that the precursor molecules of the organic matrix that is the basis for the coral skeleton are produced by the zooxanthellae. However, do note that the nitrogen for them must have come initially from the coral cell.

Thus, the question arises as to where the nitrogen in the coral cells comes from. There are two sources of this nitrogen. First, nitrogen may be available, dissolved in the water, as nitrate or ammonium ions. Although sea water is saturated with nitrogen gas from the atmosphere, only a few species of nitrogen fixing bacteria can convert it to useable form. Animals, such as corals, can not do this, and they either must rely on dissolved nitrates or ammonium or get their nitrogen from some other source. All corals appear to be able to absorb very small amounts of nitrogen containing compounds from the water, but these are insufficient to fulfill most metabolic requirements.

The second, and major, source of metabolic nitrogen for corals, sea anemones, and other zooxanthellate animals, comes from feeding, either on other animals or on particulate organic matter floating in the water. In either of these cases, the ingested food is rich in nitrogen. As I have already noted, animal tissues are mostly protein, and when an animal is killed and eaten, its tissues are reduced to their useable chemical constituents by the digestive process. These constituents are incorporated into the cells of the predator and used by that cell to produce more proteins. Only this time, they are components of the coral cell.
 

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i think coral feedings are still in debate. obviously some do eat, but i think most of the SPS we keep get thier nutrients directly from the water column and not through ingestion. i think this is covered in the mother of all TRT threads in The Think Tank.

sorry Whiskey. i do the human powered bikes. :D i think it is 400miles in 6 days. or something like that. i prolly do more miles on my bike than most people do on thier motor powered versions. ;)

G~
 

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And I've said this before, but if you look at zeo they say the media absorb's ammonia, well whatever but they get the water nutrient poor, then they shake the media constantly to feed the coral's POM, then they add amino acid's and other coral vitalizer type stuff to provide more of this raw material.

There might be something to learn here.
 

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Geoff said:
i think coral feedings are still in debate. obviously some do eat, but i think most of the SPS we keep get thier nutrients directly from the water column and not through ingestion. i think this is covered in the mother of all TRT threads in The Think Tank.
I'll have to check that out.

But I think we can all agree that our tank's have a bit of nitrate in the water, at least in comparison to NSW.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Mike O'Brien said:
And I've said this before, but if you look at zeo they say the media absorb's ammonia, well whatever but they get the water nutrient poor, then they shake the media constantly to feed the coral's POM, then they add amino acid's and other coral vitalizer type stuff to provide more of this raw material.

There might be something to learn here.
There is some debate about what Zeo accually does, I think it is nothing more than a fancy aluminum phospate absorber.

Whiskey
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Geoff said:
i think coral feedings are still in debate. obviously some do eat, but i think most of the SPS we keep get thier nutrients directly from the water column and not through ingestion. i think this is covered in the mother of all TRT threads in The Think Tank.

sorry Whiskey. i do the human powered bikes. :D i think it is 400miles in 6 days. or something like that. i prolly do more miles on my bike than most people do on thier motor powered versions. ;)

G~
That is one heck of a ride, I feel good about myself when I put 30 miles in a day on my pedal bike. When I still lived in San Diego (middle school, beginning of high school), I was in a mountain bike club it was a blast, we went for nice long monthly rides.

I ride my motorcycle to and from work every day, in the last 2.5 years I have put about 30,000 miles on it. I have taken it on a few long trips, but nothing major.

Whiskey
 

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Mike O'Brien said:
I'll have to check that out.

But I think we can all agree that our tank's have a bit of nitrate in the water, at least in comparison to NSW.
no arguement here. :D

in case you were wondering what the Mother of all TRT theads was.

G~
 
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