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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So i have a 10 gal that's been up and running for a couple months now and in it are a small mushroom, capnella, two feather dusters and one other that i don't know the name of(it hasn't come out since a got it almost a month ago), a blue knuckle hermit, emerald crab and a couple bumblebee snails. I HAD a juvenile domino, blue green damsel and bicolor blenny but they suddenly started dying one by one.

my perimeters have been about:

Temp. 78-80f
pH 8.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 40
SG 1.020

I guess the nitrate is a bit high but is that what killed them off? I have no clue what happened and everything else in the tank continue normal and healthy as far as i know.
 

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I would say that your tank is not done cycling and you had a spike. How long did you let the tank cycle before adding fish and how long did you wait when adding fish? Probably don't have the bacteria to sustain that many fish in a 10 gal. SG may be a little low also, I keep mine at 1.025-1.030
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well it cycled for about 3 weeks to a month and i put my mushroom coral in first, maybe a week after that i put my blenny. I don't turn anything off at night but the light and the blenny was the first to go, he had some stress spots but nothing unusual, the domino seemed to have a few white spots and his color would go back and forth between black and gray...then the blue/green just died out of no where a couple days later, nothing looked wrong with him whatsoever.
 

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Poseidon
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Whats your phosphates? Do you have a skimmer? Are you measuring your salt level with a hydrometre or refractometre? You have added too much too quickly and that could be the result as ammonia/nitrite levels may have spiked abit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I don't think i have the phosphate, and i don't have a skimmer but i check regularly with a hydrometer...what should i do as of now?
 

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Blue110- do you know if the fish died at night or during the day?

I dont wanna start a debate (which might happen) :D but the nitrates could be a problem with wild caught fish as 40 is a lethal amount.
show me your reference and i will show you mine. for FW fish you may be correct, but for SW. nitrates do not become lethal until into the thousands. actually i will show you mine first, then you can show me yours.

Reference 1- scroll down until you see the chart. the first part is FW, the second is SW.

G~
 

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Poseidon
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Blue110- do you know if the fish died at night or during the day?



show me your reference and i will show you mine. for FW fish you may be correct, but for SW. nitrates do not become lethal until into the thousands. actually i will show you mine first, then you can show me yours.

Reference 1- scroll down until you see the chart. the first part is FW, the second is SW.

G~
I'm not saying this is right or wrong but we would be able to find references from reliable sources that say all sorts. If nitrates really were no problem then why do we bother to water change at all when we could just dose to replace lost goods. Why do people bother to use caulerpa or anything to consume their nitrates? I don't want another debate on it as they always end the same lol! :D But if you could give me genuine proof of the correct answer to end this topic forever then that would be awesome! :D As im genuinely interested to know whats right and whats wrong as theres so many different views. In my opinion i would say saltwater are more sensitive than freshwater to nitrates i have no proof i just base it on my tank experience. As many post their views without genuine proof. I have a freshwater tank i do not do water changes on and i admitably do top offs on it with tap water :( but only as my fish show no signs of bother from it. They're all fine and i havnt done a water change in probely a year+ purhaps its my specific fish or luck. Purhaps my freshwater tank has a way of irradicating nitrates as i dont test the water. Whatever the answer i dont want to take a real view point untill i see proof. I believe nitrate sensitivity is species specific but more a problem to saltwater. But like i said i dont know or have any reason to believe this just from my experiences and that nitrates in freshwater in lakes, rivers, streams, ponds ect is far far far higher than nitrates in the ocean so you would assume that freshwater life is sturdier towards it. But at the same time purhaps regions of fish makes all the difference in nitrates tollerance, tropical freshwater vs coldwater freshwater anybody know if that makes a difference? Or coldwater marine vs tropical marine.
 

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then find me a source that says 40ppm of nitrate kills fish, if you can find data to support anything. i am showing that i have found data that shows that nowhere near 40 would cause death of salt water fish. do a search for nitrate toxicity in marine organisms and see what you get. give you a hint. SQUAT. now do a search for ammonia or nitrite toxicity in Marine organisms. i bet you will find more. :)

do you want me to tell you the history on why everyone is so worried about nitrates in SW? this is a big ol myth that has been circulating since the 60's. it was not since the development of good quality phosphate kits was the real reason why tanks crashed realized.

having started reefing back in the late 80's i can tell you that nitrate kits back then only tested to 20ppm. if you had less than 20ppm you were doing fantastic. people did not worry about nitrates until they were above 80ppm. that was considered high and something to worry about. this was also the early days of skimmers and wet/dry's aplenty fighting each other. we were able to keep corals without issue at these levels. i can tell you from personal experience and anybody else who has started reefing many moons ago that nitrates around 40ppm is not a big deal. do not get me wrong. 0 is better, but nitrates of 40ppm will not kill fish, or most inverts.

why do we do water changes. to remove phosphates. phosphates can not be removed by any other method besides physical removal. siphoning the detritus is the most efficient way to remove phosphates. that is why we do water change. removing water to remove nitrates is like turning on the fan in the bathroom instead of flushing the toilet to remove the poo. water is just a carrier it is not the source of nitrates, ammonia, or nitrites.

G~
 

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Aquatic Philosopher
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Can we rule out aggression? Aggression that lead to increased biological activity after death? What was the order of the fish-death and timeframe?

I have seen many healthy reefs of 60+ppm nitrates. Some of the best nem growth ever. Folks worry about nitrates because it is easy to test for (and sell product solving this) and sometimes it does reflect the overall status of the tank.
 

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Happy Clam
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Well it cycled for about 3 weeks to a month and i put my mushroom coral in first, maybe a week after that i put my blenny. I don't turn anything off at night but the light and the blenny was the first to go, he had some stress spots but nothing unusual, the domino seemed to have a few white spots and his color would go back and forth between black and gray...then the blue/green just died out of no where a couple days later, nothing looked wrong with him whatsoever.
You didn't answer one of the questions, unless I missed it: Did they die at night or during the day?
 

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Poseidon
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then find me a source that says 40ppm of nitrate kills fish, if you can find data to support anything. i am showing that i have found data that shows that nowhere near 40 would cause death of salt water fish. do a search for nitrate toxicity in marine organisms and see what you get. give you a hint. SQUAT. now do a search for ammonia or nitrite toxicity in Marine organisms. i bet you will find more. :)

do you want me to tell you the history on why everyone is so worried about nitrates in SW? this is a big ol myth that has been circulating since the 60's. it was not since the development of good quality phosphate kits was the real reason why tanks crashed realized.

having started reefing back in the late 80's i can tell you that nitrate kits back then only tested to 20ppm. if you had less than 20ppm you were doing fantastic. people did not worry about nitrates until they were above 80ppm. that was considered high and something to worry about. this was also the early days of skimmers and wet/dry's aplenty fighting each other. we were able to keep corals without issue at these levels. i can tell you from personal experience and anybody else who has started reefing many moons ago that nitrates around 40ppm is not a big deal. do not get me wrong. 0 is better, but nitrates of 40ppm will not kill fish, or most inverts.

why do we do water changes. to remove phosphates. phosphates can not be removed by any other method besides physical removal. siphoning the detritus is the most efficient way to remove phosphates. that is why we do water change. removing water to remove nitrates is like turning on the fan in the bathroom instead of flushing the toilet to remove the poo. water is just a carrier it is not the source of nitrates, ammonia, or nitrites.

G~
I'm obviously going to take your word for it as you have much experience but my point is you will find tons of sources that say different. Heres one that says completely different, so untill i see hard proof i dont think ill truly back up a "theory" http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/marineaquarium/nitrate.php
 

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that is why i try to only post references that are not reef related. the reef community just parrots themselves without any peer review. this is how the reef industry got into the predicament that it is now. a good ol' boys network. :(

i do not expect anybody to take my word on anything. that is why i post references. nobody should take your word either without references. this is how good information is determined from hearsay. give everyone the information and let them make their own conclusion. this is what make TRT different. at any point in time it is expected for someone giving information to post references to support their position.

G~
 

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Big Ocean, Little Fish
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With all the above being said, I agree with a lot of folks information on here and what they say with what they back their beliefs up with...yourself included G. But I don't necessarily agree with everything anyone person says. For example, G I believe you have put it out there in more ways than 1 you think a BB tank is the only way to go and that a DSB is finite and will eventually crash a tank with phosphates and what not. But there's others, Newyork Steel on YouTube, who have a DSB and has for quite sometime and his tank flourishes. Now obviously it hasn't ran forever and we can't prove that because his tank does well its because of his DSB, or that the DSB will continue to do well because its only been up for about a year and a half I believe. But my point in this rambling if it makes any sense is this, what works off one MAY work for another and if someone runs a saltwater tank with 40ppm nitrates without a problem there's no reason another tank won't be fine with the same parameters and crash another. Make sense? I'm now confused and feel as though I'm getting the flu...oh bother. LOL
 

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Aquatic Philosopher
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deputyo... NY Steelo is a idiot of the highest order. Nice guy, maybe; idiot definitely. His logic is that the tank will "crash" with "old tank syndrome" and that is the natural order of things. The worst thing is that he actively promotes a deeply flawed system and is continuing myths and bad information to a new generation of hobbyist.

I know that folks like the "many ways to skin a cat" but the scientific principles behind our systems do not work that way. We do a lot of things that bide our time (like NY) but the principles behind say and have proven that something has failed. Insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result
 
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