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Superman said:
I bet World of Fish doesn't even know that these are possibly deadly, or do they and they just don't care?
i don't think paul made any ASSUMPTIONS...i find the lack of responsibility (from the store) pretty disturbing (jmho). maybe we don't need laws, or signs for that matter-you could make a darwinian argument for people "smart" enough to buy/keep such critters. but i think all parties (store, customer, critter) would all be well served to be educated and share information about the animals we keep.
tg
 
Superman said:
I guess I'll just drop this thread, not worth my time, I don't need the drama.
Hang in there buddy! :) Thanks for the heads up on the urchin. I think the majority of us really appreciate your efforts in investigating this.

I do not recall any rattlesnakes at TC reptile however, and speaking from experience the anacondas are best off not bred for captive pets, but just like the intriguing poisonious stuff....some people get off on breeding a massive species such as these even if it means feeding off the teenage kids in the neighborhood.
 
blackdog said:
So what, why should there be a sign over the display?? If someone is buying a Rattlesnake or a Green Anaconda they better **** well know what they are getting into before going to the store.

Keith
Maybe in the world of make believe. But be realistic, many, many people impulse buy and think they'll just figure it out as they go. Ultimately it's up to the store to be educated on the live animals they are offering for sale and ultimately they are responsible if someone gets hurt and they weren't warned.
 
blackdog said:
If you are truly concenred you will call them immediately.

Keith
"concenred"??? Oh Paul, I had no idea. When did you become consenred??? Oh, this is sad. :eek:

Just kiddin' :rotflmao:
 
having looked at supply lists and knowing many LFS owners. this was prolly a mistake. urchins and eels are sometimes listed as miscellaneaus. it is a crap shoot on what exactly will be sent. most of the time it is ussually a harmless Diadema species, but on occasion these will show up. i really doubt the LFS had any idea what was comming. now, i do think that they should research what they get, to double check that they do not have anything harmfull to the aquarist.

it would not suprise me at all that they do not have a clue that that urchin is any different than any of the others they get.

i have come across many of these urchins over the years at LFS. most of them once they were told what it might me, did do the research to double check. they were then placed in thier own invert box with a skull and crossbones on it. they do eventually sell, but i am pretty sure the skull symbol is enough to scare the vast majority of the people away, and those that do buy them prolly did do the research.

G~
 
Casey, how long have you had that acro in your avatar? That's a nice piece. :drool:
 
Keith/blackdog, I would recommend that you think twice before you post something that's going to potentially be perceived as inflammatory. Sometimes just writing it and then walking away, and then coming back and deleting it is a little easier. :)

This is the last time I mention this....if there is potential that your post is going to be perceived as inflammatory, I'm deleting the post and possibly locking the thread. Last time I checked, we were all friends. So let's act like it. :)
 
you know... If I had a tank that I could put it in, I'd buy it. I think it looks awesome, and I wouldn't mind something deadly in a tank: A HUGE tank, that is... not my poor seahorse tank!!!

so I read through the thread: DID anyone call up the place and tell them what it was?
 
I hate to say it but any one palythoa or zoanthid is twice as deadly as a Flower urchin. Even the tiniest ppm of Palytoxin in our system and our bodies shut down. I would be alot more concerned about that.

that being said where are all the warnings next to all of the "button polyps" signs? and while your at it we need warnings signs for everything like "Caution: Stairs up ahead, wear a helmet." I think it is all for not.
 
We cannot expect LFS's to be marine biologists and able to identify everything they get. If I remember correctly there was a new species of fish found a year or so ago when it turned up in a LFS in Chicago or somewhere that was identified by customer as a unkown species. It is a buyers responsibilty to know what your getting. If everything had a caution sign that could be dangerous the world run out of papre and ink to print it all. I think it is our responsability to notify of possible dangers if we see someything wrong like a 14 yearold kid sticking his/her hand in a tank w/ foxface lo; lionfish; green morey eel; electric eel; bull shark; box jelly; or whatever. It is not however our business to be expressing our opinion when it is not warrented. just my .02
 
carman34l said:
I hate to say it but any one palythoa or zoanthid is twice as deadly as a Flower urchin. Even the tiniest ppm of Palytoxin in our system and our bodies shut down. I would be alot more concerned about that.

that being said where are all the warnings next to all of the "button polyps" signs? and while your at it we need warnings signs for everything like "Caution: Stairs up ahead, wear a helmet." I think it is all for not.
This is a good point, but there is a difference here. Eating zooanthids would be really really bad, but as far as I know anyway, people do not usually get poisoned by zooanthids just from touching them (and normally people do not eat what is in their tanks...though accidentally licking fingers after working with zooanthids might be bad). The thing about this urchin is that apparently you can be harmed pretty seriously just from touching it.

Probably there should be warnings about zooanthids though. Though adults are not likely to be eating or licking them, you never know what small children might do if not adequately supervised. Or imagine this scenario...someone with a baby is fragging zooanthids and a polyp falls on the floor without being noticed. Babies like to crawl around a lot and put things in their mouths. Could be a bad situation.
 
capman said:
This is a good point, but there is a difference here. Eating zooanthids would be really really bad, but as far as I know anyway, people do not usually get poisoned by zooanthids just from touching them (and normally people do not eat what is in their tanks...though accidentally licking fingers after working with zooanthids might be bad). The thing about this urchin is that apparently you can be harmed pretty seriously just from touching it.

Probably there should be warnings about zooanthids though. Though adults are not likely to be eating or licking them, you never know what small children might do if not adequately supervised. Or imagine this scenario...someone with a baby is fragging zooanthids and a polyp falls on the floor without being noticed. Babies like to crawl around a lot and put things in their mouths. Could be a bad situation.
That is exactly right Bill... Typically there are no sharp pointy quill like objects on zoos and such... however the urchin itself could potentially pierce your skin allowing the poison to get into the bloodstream. The fact is if I went to WOF, purchased this thing without being told it was as dangerous as it is.... in the end if I was then later harmed by it... I would be winning a lot of cash in the court of law or at least m y family would considering I may be dead.

However for the record, I do know that the tank it was in about 2 weeks ago or so did have some type of warning on it. The problem is it was written on the glass with a marker that gets wiped away from time to time. Also for the record the pictures do not do this thing justice. IT IS AMAZINGLY BEAUTIFUL!!!! Deadly or not I would own one of these in a heartbeat if I had the ability to take the proper precautions.
 
Sorry Superman, I did not mean to be disrespectful.

I talked to Dan at WOF and he told me that he did some research on the urchin and claims it is not the type that causes paralysis or death, however it will sting. They probably shouldn't have called it a Flower Urchin. Hopefully they are correct.. I still don't think they would willingly try to sell a deadly urchin to an unsuspecting customer.

Keith
 
tico mike said:
Maybe in the world of make believe. But be realistic, many, many people impulse buy and think they'll just figure it out as they go. Ultimately it's up to the store to be educated on the live animals they are offering for sale and ultimately they are responsible if someone gets hurt and they weren't warned.
Nope, right here in our reallity!!:freak: You really think there are people that will impulse buy a rattlesnake or an anaconda, ok. I'm sure any store licensed to sell such an animal would have purchase contracts or liability release forms for the new owner to sign. A good store will have educated employees that will inform interested parties of any dangerous animals no doubt about it... but it will likely be the owner at the time of the "mishap" who ultimately will be responsible if someone gets hurt.

Keith
 
I just wanted to clear things up about the urchin in question at AWOF. Blackdog called the store and I spoke with him (i'm dan at AWOF) and I just wanted to share some info on this thread. The urchin is actually of the genus Asthenosoma and is possibly i.d.'ed as Asthenosoma varium. The urchin is venemous and can deliver a painful sting- what has been described as being electrocuted by one of my wholesalers. It IS NOT the deadly flower urchin (Toxopneustes spp.). The information with regards to it being venemous should be posted on the aquarium of the urchin in question. Sometimes the signs get erased and it may be a while until it gets written on the tank again but it is usually sooner than later. The employee that answered with regards to its care may have felt that it being venemous was something "known" or that the customer may have already read this bit of information on the aqaurium. I can not count how many times I have gotten the "you idiot" look when I tell someone a lionfish is venemous so I tend not to discuss this until I know they are really interested in the fish and just to make sure they know. The same probably holds true for the urchin, we get asked about it a lot. You may have just gotten a lazy worker or a worker that does not know salt stuff that well. I think a lot of the confusion arises from the trade name given, which is the electric flower urchin. This is misleading, Dr. Shimek calls it a fire urchin and not a flower urchin (in his book Shimek does not say that this is a deadly urchin which he does say about urchins in the genus Toxopnesustes). A lot of times the "trade name" is created with intent to sell the item, in this case by associating it with the deadly flower urchin (toxopneustes spp.). Really the only way to truly identify an organism is by its latin name and not going by some fly-by-night trade name. I hope this clears up some info about the urchin in question. And by the way I can get the real flower urchins or blue ring octopuses if any one is interested??? Just kidding, I promise not to order these but on a side not they both are available from time to time and would retail for about 79.99 ( and that's at inflated AWOF prices) . What is really messed up is to think that there is someone who collects these deadly creatures for literally pennies. The urchin would not be hard but I would assume the octupus intales a ton of risk when handling. Thanks
 
blackdog said:
Nope, right here in our reallity!!:freak: You really think there are people that will impulse buy a rattlesnake or an anaconda, ok. I'm sure any store licensed to sell such an animal would have purchase contracts or liability release forms for the new owner to sign. A good store will have educated employees that will inform interested parties of any dangerous animals no doubt about it... but it will likely be the owner at the time of the "mishap" who ultimately will be responsible if someone gets hurt.

Keith
I doubt Bruce was selling rattlesnakes. (Maybe he was, but that would mean things have changed since I was in the Herp club.) I have zero doubt there are college kids that would buy those things without research. I may be a grandpa, but I remember college and I remember lots of weird creatures. If it's for sale, someone will buy it. The danger comes in (like in the case of an urchin) when neither the high school or college age employee and the person buying it has a clue. I will admit I never knew what a flower urchin was until I read this thread. I wouldn't buy it not knowing if it eats corals or not, but if I had a fish only I could have seen myself buying it, without knowing it could be deadly and I know a fair amount about ocean creatures. You can't honestly think there isn't anyone out there in that age range that wouldn't buy an anaconda without research??? Smeese, help me out. You must run into people in Kato that want a snake and then put it in a cage with cedar bedding or something, much less just not know what it takes to keep reptiles...
 
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