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280 Gallon Brewery Build!

5K views 80 replies 14 participants last post by  pmarkj 
#1 ·
Its time for my own 'rebuild' thread so I stop asking all my questions on others build thread :)

First some background, brewery mentioned in the title is the bar in my man cave. With that being said, I designed my bar around the fish tank. I have 12 beers on tap (all of which I made) underneath the tank. The tank is a 72x36x25 tank purposely because that allows my large fridge to slide under neath of it for the 12 kegs.

Originally, my brewery was named 'Shark Tank Brewery'. I had marble cat sharks as a FOWLR tank. And my slogan was 'Brewed in Captivity, Drink to get Wild', as a play on Zoos saying bred in captivity, released to the wild.

Couple issues, I love sharks, im an avid shark diver and have been around the world seeking out sharks to scuba with, but in captivity...well...they suck. I had an awesome shark and eel that were awesome for exactly 30 seconds a day. The rest of the time they were hidden under a rock. I grew to be infinitely more fond of the cleaner shrimp cleaning station and my fox face rabbit fish that was always scared and changing colors. Sharks presented other challenges, like they eat clean up crews. And as a newcomer to the hobby I needed clean up crews to deal with all the issues I had.

Lets just generically say that I ran into every issue that you might come across as a hobbyist. Ich, velvet, cyano, hair algae... Long story short after accidentally bleaching the tank and killing the remaining inhabitants I wanted to start over.

Starting over wasnt an over night thing. Ive read Geoffs 'Reef keeping made easy' thread at least three times. Along with a million other threads, sites, etc. I only had my tank up for a few months, and at this point I've waiting almost six months to start again while researching for hours every day.

At this point things are in motion again and most decisions have been made. Im finalizing a few things that I wanted to get input on first, so I started this thread. I originally had 150 pounds of dry rock. To ensure nothing was left from my previous failures I bleached the rocks, and did an acid bath. I bought 50 pounds of shelf rock, and 50 pounds of cut shelf rock from macro rocks and 50 pounds of branch rock from brs. I dont know that Ill need or will use all 300 pounds but when you order online you never know what you are going to get. I have all of the rock currently in a 100 gallon tub covered, with tons of flow and I hooked my skimmer up to it. Its been running for about a month and the skimmer at first took a ton out. When I remember I 'feed' it just to get some bacteria growing but mainly I just figured while Im researching I wanted to get any phosphates off the rock and get it going.
 
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#2 ·
Plan for the tank:

I am now switching to a reef tank instead of a FOWLR tank. I want things with movement and color and didnt really enjoy the predator tank. I travel a lot for work, and I spent many nights on the phone with my wife trying to get her to put meat on a stick and feed the eel and shark and it just wasnt worth it. Im going to get an autofeeder, and have things that eat 'light' :). I plan on supplementing black worms based on discussed with Paul to get the fish some of the bacteria that you dont get from pellets or frozen food. Im not going to rely on pellets but I like the idea of more frequent smaller feedings, having a controller with a feed mode, etc. I always came back from travel with algae everywhere because she over fed and it all went into the over flows and broke down in the filters.

I dont know enough about coral species yet to name specifics so Im open to suggestions.

I definitely plan on getting cleaner shrimp again, multiple rabbit fish and some tangs. Though probably not the brown and blue that I loved but got ich immediatly each time I got them...


Previous equipment:

I had 3 Kessil 360WEs, 3 Vortech MP40s, Lifereef 36 inch skimmer powered by blueline 30 pump and a lifereef wet dry sump with three canister filters.

When I drained the tank, I also disconnected all the plumbing and cleaned everything. In addition to the issues I had in the tank, I had leaks, flow issues, everything. I just didnt know all the engineering and science to properly setup my tank.

At this point, I sold two of my Kessils and have one left to sell and the controller. Im going to switch to Ecotech Radions because I dont like only have blue light. As a diver, it reminded me of deeper dives and needing a flashlight to see the colors on the corals.

Im also planning on getting some new Ecotech Vectra pumps and selling my bluelines. The bluelines are basically brand new and great pumps, but even though I have a dedicated fish room I didnt like the noise they made.

Oh, its time to leave work...Ill pick this up later and also be sure to put up pics. I have tons of pics of it running before, and the bar I made. I know pics are a requirement here.
 
#5 ·
well...thats a pain. Now I know why I used other forums for my build before. That and when I view the site on my iphone it doesnt show any options under the control panel. So I have to send them to my comp, itll take a little longer but theyre coming.

In the meantime, the major question remaining right now is what to do with my lifereef wet dry filter.

From a functional standpoint, its great. Has probe holders, built in flow throw cylinders, great slide out drawers. I love it.

But...I know ive discussed it on Geoffs new build thread. I understand theres a preference here to use a cylinder but I spent a lot of money on that and am not ready to just scrap it.

I also was going to plumb in an extra 100 gallon rubbermaid container for extra water volume but now Im thinking it might not be worth it.

I have two life reef pre filters right now, that have a foam block on each. And the two drawers on the wet dry I used to have mechanical filtration in. I understand that they will collect detritus, and theres flow going through it. I didnt mind cleaning them before and did like the indicator of seeing it be caught then I cleaned them. It also kept the bio balls clean.

I was also thinking of putting those ceramic bricks on the bottom, that way anythign the bioballs convert, can then go into the bricks to have the anaerobic process break them down.

I could just remove the bio balls or put something else there but I like my sump being clean and not worry about things collecting in there. I didnt have salt creep or worry about snails getting into floats or anything. Im very torn on what path to take.

I dont know if I said this yet but Im definitely going bare bottom this time. I didnt have near enough flow before so Im going to have no less than 5 MP40s, and I ordered a sea swirl that I have now for the return. I plan on having the shelf rock on top of branches to keep flow on the bottom of the tank. I want everything to go into the over flows now.

Im looking for suggestions on the sump situation!
 
#7 ·
Looks like pretty sic setup! Looking forward to seeing this build. I converted my Amiracle 3 chamber wet dry with bio balls and 2 media trays. Set it up with a baffle to keep water level the same for my skimmer. Then fabricated 2 filter sock holders. I think they are alot more effective at keeping detritus out of the sump and easy to swap out as frequently as you like. I had thought of letting the detritus settle in the sump as many suggested here but did not want a dirty sump. I just change out socks every few days.
 
#9 ·
WooHoo another build thread!

i have just been playing around with different shaped settling tanks to try and find an "easier" way. what is important is that there is a place that settles detritus that is easy to get to. the easier it is to get to and clean the more likely one is to do it. that is the important part. we are lazy. if it is hard, we will not do it. a settling tank can be any shape, all that is important is that the flow through it is less than any other place in the system. it should also be free of equipment and other stuff. if you want to use your old Wet/dry for a settling sump because of the probe holders, then i suggest using it. if it is on the ground, i suggest raising it up a few inches to help with siphoning it.

G~
 
#10 ·
WooHoo another build thread!

i have just been playing around with different shaped settling tanks to try and find an "easier" way. what is important is that there is a place that settles detritus that is easy to get to. the easier it is to get to and clean the more likely one is to do it. that is the important part. we are lazy. if it is hard, we will not do it. a settling tank can be any shape, all that is important is that the flow through it is less than any other place in the system. it should also be free of equipment and other stuff. if you want to use your old Wet/dry for a settling sump because of the probe holders, then i suggest using it. if it is on the ground, i suggest raising it up a few inches to help with siphoning it.

G~
ill get some pics of the equipment room but I keep the sump about a foot off the ground.

Is there a difference between cleaning poly that caught detritus, or letting it collect and siphoning it?
 
#11 ·
yes and no. the more access detritus has to oxygen the faster it can decompose releasing some of its bound nutrients. generally poly is located in fast flowing areas. the faster the flow the more oxygen going by, the faster the decomposition. settled detritus tends to be slower flow areas. less oxygen going by. slower decomposition.

G~
 
#12 ·
yes and no. the more access detritus has to oxygen the faster it can decompose releasing some of its bound nutrients. generally poly is located in fast flowing areas. the faster the flow the more oxygen going by, the faster the decomposition. settled detritus tends to be slower flow areas. less oxygen going by. slower decomposition.

G~
Geoff - I think I narrowed down where my confusion is. I keep thinking that I have plenty of live rock for bacteria to colonize, anything that breaks down in the mechanical filters will go to the bio balls that have an air pump to add oxygen to aid in breaking down the nitrates, and then I can throw some ceramic bricks under the bio balls to do the last anaerobic breakdown from the biol balls.

However, rereading some of your posts I was realizing we dont talk about phosphates in the nitrate cycle. So its not so much that I wont have bacteria to break down the ammonia its that I need to remove the phosphates. This correct?

I would still have my large skimmer doing at least 2000gph of the water after it comes from the bio balls, and a uv filter that also returns to where the skimmer will pull from.

For me to try and keep my setup, but replicate a situation where I allow detritus to collect in a low flow area in the sump, would be difficult becasue I have two towers that will be connected to the two drain lines. It would be a lot of work to disconnect water lines, remove the large towers, and then vac out the bottom.

What I was originally thinking, is I would have a few layers of mechanical filtration. First is the foam bricks on the over flows. Before this quickly caught any food from over feeding. I would rinse them daily but it was clear if I went on travel and my wife didnt that things would build up and hair algae would grow. I hope to first minimize this by having a controller with a feed move, stopping my return pumps (slowing them acutally with the vectra) and have a precise auto feeder that would allow the fish to eat what is fed instead of most going in the over flow. Second, I was using filter pads that had GFO or some other phosphate absorbing material in them. This would have caught anythign that broke down. Though its definitely an added expense. It would be cheaper to just cut squares from a bulk roll and throw them out. I can also have multiple layers so a more expensive pad that catches smaller microns doesnt get clogged easy.

Will skimmer remove broken down phosphates or do they need to be in the no decomposed form, aka larger, to be collected on the bubbles?

I feel like im getting a better understanding of the you wanting to just remove waste as easily and cheaply as possible. I think it might be easier for me to rinse or replace pads then to vac. I dont really like vacuuming, ask my wife! Thats part of why im doing bare bottom with tons of flow. i dont mind pulling a drawer and changing a pad out.

Now, I guess the next question is even if I keep the drawer and towers, should I keep the bio balls in them? Does the added filtration hurt any? And should I get the cermanic bricks to put under them?
 
#13 ·
Heres the old logo, looking for new naming suggestions. Though I liked it so might just keep it but not get another shark...



A throw back to my shark...RIP



And the escape artist eel in my prefilter...



Heres the back of the tank with the prefilters from before...since then i removed the plastic backing and painted the tank black



When I started building the area







Heres the beer fridge under the tank, the reason I got the size tank I did. That and it was originally meant for the shark



The beer lines



Ive very proud of my sink. I custom designed it myself, Made full 3d models and blue prints, material and weld call outs, etc. and had it fabricated. I needed it to fit under 12 taps, have a built in rinser, and be removable to use as a sink. They i put in a faucet on an arm that folds out of the way







Heres when I tacked the trim up to make sure it fit, spent weeks staining it all in the basement, still need to poly it and put it back up. You can also kinda see where I painted the glass black. This is also when I started the HORRIBLE process of taking out the nasty smelly stinky smell...so glad its out. Just need to decide if I want to get star board or not.

 
#16 ·
Also id only run ~300gph through the UV. I was just saying I mean get use a 2000gph eco tech vectors pump for my uv and flow through cylinders so I'd have the pump as a backup. But it'd be turned down to do about 200 through each cylinder and 300 or whatever the calculation is for the UV.
 
#19 ·
Just stopping by to say how much I love your bar setup. I don't think I'd get much work done down there though. As a home brewer myself I'd say it's commendable that you keep 12 home brews on tap. Before my "kegerator" shot craps keeping two was a lot of work.
 
#22 ·
Thanks I appreciate it. Its been a ton of work, years of planning and design. As much as I research and plan it makes it even more frustrating all the problems I had with the tank the first time. As we all know theres plenty of reefing advice out there and its not always consistent!

So last night I stopped by my local fish store for some inspiration. I gotta say that most of the corals I was drawn too turned out to be LPS. I really liked the torch, hammer, brain and I really really really liked a couple goniastrea that he had. They looked like they were splatter painted with neon colors, so cool. He was sold out of most of his SPS stock. I gotta start reading up on colors and getting a plan together. Fortunately, I have a large tank so I assume I can easily do a mixed reef, separate them and even change the lighting or flow in different parts of the tank.
 
#20 ·


I can try tonight to measure the flow rate of my skimmer using the blueline 70hd. Im suspecting though when I change to the ecotech vectra it will go down because it wont be able to handle the head pressure as well.

hes an old pic of the sump. Ignore how bad everything looks. As I said before there was tons of lessons learned...You can only see one tower but there is two, the other is just behind the beer fridge. The water drains into the center of each tower for its over overflow prefilter. they each have a drawer that can have whatever type of media you want, and then holes that it trickles to the bio balls.

I have one bulk head under the right tower that I was using to pull water for the skimmer. I have two other bulk heads in a center section that has an additional tray to put another mechanical filter. The three flow through canisters previously were fed as part of the main pumps return, though Id like to avoid that this time.
 
#23 ·
Put me in with the no on bioballs. Great for fish only. Best thing I ever did was ditch them in my wet dry. With that tower it would be easy to ditch the bioballs and the tray with holes for the trickle down. Then use that space to mount filter socks. Use the large ones so they can handle the flow you will have and they will keep the drain water quite. That is the one nice thing about the tray with holes and bioballs. It is quite, but a long sock will do the ssme. Plus keep the parts and you can always go back.
 
#24 ·
Here is pic for to help with ides. You can see my drain going to one sock. That is the old filter media tray with holes. I cut that and the lid up and made it a filter sock holder. Bioballs and tray used to be underneath. With your the sock would be higher and above the water.

 
#26 ·
socks are easily removed and rinsed clean or better yet thrown in the washing machine.

those towers look like they just lift out of the sump. they do not look mounted to the sump. i still think just remove them and reroute the water any way you like.

it is harder to do a mixed reef than you think. it is really hard to keep the inorganic/organic nutrient levels at a perfect balance to support both the inorganic needing corals, yet not enough to be toxic for the corals that find inorganic nutrients toxic.

it is good to figure out what organisms are your must have organisms and start designing the system around their needs.

G~
 
#28 ·
socks are easily removed and rinsed clean or better yet thrown in the washing machine.

those towers look like they just lift out of the sump. they do not look mounted to the sump. i still think just remove them and reroute the water any way you like.

it is harder to do a mixed reef than you think. it is really hard to keep the inorganic/organic nutrient levels at a perfect balance to support both the inorganic needing corals, yet not enough to be toxic for the corals that find inorganic nutrients toxic.

it is good to figure out what organisms are your must have organisms and start designing the system around their needs.

G~
whats considered mixed? lps and sps are both still hard stony corals right? or are they separated based on their care requirements

whats the reason most people say they want an sps tank? is it just the challenge or the looks? I liked the corlas and movement of the lps colors i looked at. but i want things that can handle high flow because I dont want detritus to settle
 
#29 ·
LPS and SPS can be done pretty easily. it is when you want to throw softies into the mix that it gets harder to keep all of the corals happy.

just personal preference on what types of corals people like to keep. i like fuzzy sticks. though i do find well done softie tanks mesmerizing with their movement. as long as the system is setup to emulate the environment properly, then any of these groups of corals is easy. it becomes hard when the system is setup for one type, but another type is kept.

G~
 
#31 ·
no, you used the term correctly. mixed means different for different people. yours is a mixed reef, just not as mixed as if it also included softies. LPS and SPS being hermatypic, they tend to have close to the same tolerance for inorganic nutrients.

G~
 
#32 ·
Heres the response I got back about the wet dry. Its things Ive tried to bring up on other threads too. The one thing that pops out is it being high oxygen and you guys saying thats the opposite of what you want.

Contrary to what you are being told, a wet/dry gives you two things that a sump does not:
1. Higher dissolved oxygen levels
2. Biological filter separate from your aquarium, good to have should your aquarium break out in any kind of algae problem

Why is everyone telling you otherwise?
1. Most of the wet/dry filters were nitrate factories due to their smaller size, inefficient bio-towers, lack of oxygen in the bio-tower, and poor protein skimmers.
2. Not too many still make a real true wet/dry so why would they tell you to buy one if they can’t sell you one.

The Lifereef wet/dry filters were not the nitrate factories like all the others for these reasons:
1. My wet/dry media volume was greater than competing wet/dry filters
2. Water trickled through a greater vertical distance than did any other
3. Fully covered trickle over all the bio-media, not spinner bars or warped drip plates as others had which lead to inadequate bio-filter coverage
4. Air injection into the towers to keep bacteria oxygenated
5. Lifereef protein skimmer, and a good protein skimmer does reduce nitrates

So, unless your wet/dry gave you nitrate issues it is a fantastic system to use on a marine or reef aquarium.

Another plus for a wet/dry is that if you ever have an algae problem in the main aquarium your wet/dry bacteria will take up the slack. Algae covering live rock act as a barrier and prevent water circulation and the bacteria are no longer doing their job, the wet/dry will act as a “bandaid” until you get the tank algae under control.

If you wish to not use the bio-balls take out all but an inch or two of the bio-balls and retain the use of the slide-out drawers for mechanical filtration.

During the transition from wet/dry to Berlin in 1994 many of my wet/dry customers called me wanting to do the same thing. My question to them was “what are your nitrates” and most of the time the answer was zero or low.

Jeff
 
#33 ·
1. they do not give higher oxygen levels, than what is in atmosphere. as long as there is good surface agitation, then a wet/dry is not going to give more oxygen exchange than what is already occurring. if the pH is good, then gas exchange is good.
2.bioballs trap detritus and allow it to decompose. this is also going on in the rest of the system wherever there is detritus. it just happens faster in a wet/dry because of the access to oxygen from the direct interface between water and atmosphere.

1.they are all nitrate factories. nitrates are washed away from the breakdown of ammonia and nitrite. the bacteria in these high oxygenated areas are better capable of this conversion, not the conversion to N2 gas. 2 much O2, it gets in the way. i am not sure what he is getting at with the protein skimmer comment. protein skimmers extract bacteria, not inorganic. if the skimmer is not good enough this would point that what is really going on is that the bacteria are utilizing the waste products from the wet/dry then getting removed by the skimmer. which points to the wet/dry, not processing something as well as they believe. ;)
2. i agree that someone who sells something is gong to sell what they have, and if they do not have one, then they are not going to suggest one. wet/dry's are not that difficult to make or understand. if they worked so well, there is no reason why anybody could not add one to their product range. wet/dry's were everywhere in the late 80's-early 90's when LifeReef got started. not so much anymore for reefs. for a reason.

1.meaning more detritus can get caught. the more detritus the more bacteria. one feeds the other.
2. not sure how this matters, except that if any of it dries out that could be problematic. if it is to tall, then there is a greater chance that water will find a path and some areas get missed.
3. bacteria populations match their resources. the more material that gets trapped the more bacteria. what is providing the nitrates and P? is it the organisms, or is it the decomposition of detritus?
4. increases the rate of decomposition of the trapped detritus, and helps in the production of nitrates.
5. by the removal of the bacteria utilizing the inorganic N and P. the skimmer does not directly remove inorganic N and P. the bigger question is where are the inorganic N and P coming from in the first place, if not from the decomposition of detritus and organism waste? ;)

G~
 
#34 ·
1. they do not give higher oxygen levels, than what is in atmosphere. as long as there is good surface agitation, then a wet/dry is not going to give more oxygen exchange than what is already occurring. if the pH is good, then gas exchange is good.
2.bioballs trap detritus and allow it to decompose. this is also going on in the rest of the system wherever there is detritus. it just happens faster in a wet/dry because of the access to oxygen from the direct interface between water and atmosphere.

1.they are all nitrate factories. nitrates are washed away from the breakdown of ammonia and nitrite. the bacteria in these high oxygenated areas are better capable of this conversion, not the conversion to N2 gas. 2 much O2, it gets in the way. i am not sure what he is getting at with the protein skimmer comment. protein skimmers extract bacteria, not inorganic. if the skimmer is not good enough this would point that what is really going on is that the bacteria are utilizing the waste products from the wet/dry then getting removed by the skimmer. which points to the wet/dry, not processing something as well as they believe. ;)
2. i agree that someone who sells something is gong to sell what they have, and if they do not have one, then they are not going to suggest one. wet/dry's are not that difficult to make or understand. if they worked so well, there is no reason why anybody could not add one to their product range. wet/dry's were everywhere in the late 80's-early 90's when LifeReef got started. not so much anymore for reefs. for a reason.

1.meaning more detritus can get caught. the more detritus the more bacteria. one feeds the other.
2. not sure how this matters, except that if any of it dries out that could be problematic. if it is to tall, then there is a greater chance that water will find a path and some areas get missed.
3. bacteria populations match their resources. the more material that gets trapped the more bacteria. what is providing the nitrates and P? is it the organisms, or is it the decomposition of detritus?
4. increases the rate of decomposition of the trapped detritus, and helps in the production of nitrates.
5. by the removal of the bacteria utilizing the inorganic N and P. the skimmer does not directly remove inorganic N and P. the bigger question is where are the inorganic N and P coming from in the first place, if not from the decomposition of detritus and organism waste? ;)

G~
Having had plenty of algae outbreaks before, what about his point of it being extra biological filtration? I dont think any detritus gets trapped on the bio balls because thats all being caught in the mechanical filtration first. My sump was always clean on the bottom. Where as plenty of waste was collecting on the rocks where flow couldnt get to them or if algae/bacteria covered it. Now if I dont clean the mechanical filters its going to break down and then isnt that what your biological filtration is for? to convert that waste and/or then its removes by the skimmers? If you didnt have the bio balls, the waste would just be collecting on the bottom of the sump without any biological filtration to break it down right? Anything not vacuumed up or removed by the skimmer.
 
#35 ·
I think Geof is getting at that the whole theory should be nutrient export. In that theory there is no need for bioballs to hold the bacteria to break down detritus because you remove the detritus before it starts to break down. Maybe Life reef system will work, and like so many things in this hobby you never know for yourself till you try. But I will add that with my old 3 chamber wet dry the bioballs were giving me algae. Because while my Nitrate was never high it was always at 5 or 10 so I always struggled. It was hard for me to change but after I removed the bioballs the system did better. Had nitrates at 0 and algae problems all but went away. Now maybe there is something to the towers being a different design then my Amiracle wet dry. But I still think the bioballs are fighting the bacteria in the live rock and that is working against each other. My buddy has a 1200 gallon fish only tank. He uses a huge bioballs wet dry and also to 50 gallon tanks with live rock that water works through. He has great success with both in his setup but I guarantee he is never at 0 nitrates or Phosphate, but fish don't care about some nitrates.
 
#36 ·
So, I just wrote the below on Geoffs thread but Im pasting it here too. Its like your first line, in Geoffs theory. Im not mocking it, or disagreeing with it. I just don't think its practical to think we'll always remove everything before it can break down. We have backup plans for everything else in this hobby. Now, bio balls might still not be the right backup. But filter socks kinda do the same thing. They're high oxygen, water is basically trickling through them, but since your always cleaning them you aren't going to have bacteria on them to break stuff down.

Geoff - I'm going to play devils advocate some more because its the only way I learn. That, and selfishly I'm still trying to work out the details for my build ;)

So you've had a few things happen that have resulted in coral deaths, algae blooms, etc. Ive been re reading this thread and some others and I go back in my mind to something I thought in the beginning and discussed with Paul. To me, while I can't argue against any of your science, it reminds me of my Dad always saying that if I just cleaned up as I made the mess I wouldn't have so much to clean later. Meaning, you say that if you keep cleaning the detritus it won't cause problems, but you lack backup plans. And against my Dads wishes, I never cleaned up as often as I should. Things like GFO, or filter socks, or bio balls, or extra rock, or sand, or reactors, etc. You discussed why you don't need any of those in the long thread, but can't you argue that you need some of them because you haven't been able to do as you're saying and keep the tank clean enough?

I know you're still working through ideas on how to get it to settle better, not stick, etc. And my question isn't doubting that you'll figure it out. I just think most of us will always run into problems and need to have a plan for them.

If you had some macro algae, wouldn't that have helped you and prevented the nuisance algae from growing? Then once you get it figured out more the macro algae would just naturally die off like you talked about before?

Everything about this hobby is about redundancy. Backup power, pumps, float valves, probes, everything. Why should filtration be any different?
 
#37 ·
you are right, we are not able to remove everything before any of it has a chance to decompose. what i am getting at is that the more you remove the less that has the potential to decompose. what you see is what you get. if every week you remove all of the detritus, then only the detritus you see, can decompose in the mean time. if you are not removing all of the detritus every week, then the more detritus that builds up the more detritus that can decompose. the greater the need for support organism, or after the fact P removers. the more places it can hide the harder it is to keep the detritus under control. whether it is a substrate, in bioballs, in filter socks, in LR, it doesn't matter. if it is in the system bacteria will work on it. the bacteria in a system can not decompose detritus that has been removed.

bacteria need resources like any organism. you put in a brand new filter sock or brand new bioballs. they are clean of bacteria and resources. once they are put in the water they have access to resources and bacteria. once the resources start collecting on the filter socks or bioballs the bacteria start colonizing. they will continue to colonize as long as there is a supply of resources to support the population of bacteria. the more resources the more bacteria. the longer the bioballs and filter sock are in the system the more resources they can collect. if you remove the filter sock every day. all of those resources and the bacteria working on the resources have been removed. you have exported all of the N and P that they contained. the process starts over. bioballs that are still in the system continue to collect resources and build bacterial population. some of the bacteria die and become resources for other bacteria. an increase in biomass. an increase in detritus. bioballs collect detritus. there is zero way that they could not if they are "working". bacteria themselves create detritus. most detritus is just bacterial mulm. dead bacteria. if they work, then they are covered in bacteria, correct? i have cleaned a fair number of wet/drys in my day. the rinse water is not a pretty sight. also smells a lot like skimmate.

G~
 
#38 ·
you are right, we are not able to remove everything before any of it has a chance to decompose. what i am getting at is that the more you remove the less that has the potential to decompose. what you see is what you get. if every week you remove all of the detritus, then only the detritus you see, can decompose in the mean time. if you are not removing all of the detritus every week, then the more detritus that builds up the more detritus that can decompose. the greater the need for support organism, or after the fact P removers. the more places it can hide the harder it is to keep the detritus under control. whether it is a substrate, in bioballs, in filter socks, in LR, it doesn't matter. if it is in the system bacteria will work on it. the bacteria in a system can not decompose detritus that has been removed.

bacteria need resources like any organism. you put in a brand new filter sock or brand new bioballs. they are clean of bacteria and resources. once they are put in the water they have access to resources and bacteria. once the resources start collecting on the filter socks or bioballs the bacteria start colonizing. they will continue to colonize as long as there is a supply of resources to support the population of bacteria. the more resources the more bacteria. the longer the bioballs and filter sock are in the system the more resources they can collect. if you remove the filter sock every day. all of those resources and the bacteria working on the resources have been removed. you have exported all of the N and P that they contained. the process starts over. bioballs that are still in the system continue to collect resources and build bacterial population. some of the bacteria die and become resources for other bacteria. an increase in biomass. an increase in detritus. bioballs collect detritus. there is zero way that they could not if they are "working". bacteria themselves create detritus. most detritus is just bacterial mulm. dead bacteria. if they work, then they are covered in bacteria, correct? i have cleaned a fair number of wet/drys in my day. the rinse water is not a pretty sight. also smells a lot like skimmate.

G~
so with following that logic, wouldnt it be better to have no rock in the display, and then have live rock or bio balls in the sump, that way as soon as waste is created by the bacteria it will go right through the skimmer?

Or to take it another step, nothing in the display, then have it go through a sock or pad to catch large waste first as to not clog the rock at all or have a chance to be broken down (initially at least until it breaks down through the pad).

Since biological filtration is always going to match what we need, and either grow or die off, I get we probably have way more surface area than we need. It seems like youd benefit from just trying to have this steril as possible display and keep flow over rocks in a sump.

Im sure theres something im missing with this too because otherwise I still dont get the harm in bio balls. They are a nitrate factory in the same way live rock, or anything else with surface area would be. They wont clog like live rock can. and with them being in the sump as the detritus is made from the bio balls, it goes straight to the skimmer before it goes to the display and causes algae issues.
 
#41 ·
yea, a good amount of marine biology is what happens to the poo. :(

more and more people are starting to think about nutrient export instead of nutrient cover up. this thinking will create new products and techniques for our industry. who knows maybe trickling down through bioballs is a great way to create detritus that can be exported using a filter sock/cone instead of waiting for the skimmer to do it.

G~
 
#42 ·
yea, a good amount of marine biology is what happens to the poo. :(

more and more people are starting to think about nutrient export instead of nutrient cover up. this thinking will create new products and techniques for our industry. who knows maybe trickling down through bioballs is a great way to create detritus that can be exported using a filter sock/cone instead of waiting for the skimmer to do it.

G~
just to clarify in the pic I posted on yoru thread, I wouldnt be using any bio balls. Since I have two towers already, I was going to put conical shaped items in my towers. Where as you just started with conical shape. Id have to re look at your diagram to see how you have water entering the conical container. Id be trying to see if having water enter via 500 holes, creates a lower flow that increases settling rates of detritus. Though if I had to guess id assume if you could have the water enter and create a swirling patterns that would be the best way for it to work. Its like when your making beer on a large scale. You pump the liquid in the conical container so all the solids are thrown to the outside of the cyclone then you pull liquid from the center to transfer. Its essentially a way to filter without using any media.
 
#43 ·
as it stands now. water enters a small SWAS (sump within a sump) it then gets pulled directly into the skimmer. the output from the skimmer is angled along the side of the CST to create a swirling flow in the CST to settle the solids in the center. the problem is that the solids are sticking to the sides. even with 1000gph plus of flow swirling. :( the water exits the CST as close to the center of the tank. right now the skimmer is in the middle, but when i redo things there will not be a skimmer and the outlet for the CST will be centered and pointed upwards.

G~
 
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