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2K views 19 replies 7 participants last post by  geedoug 
#1 ·
A fellow reefer on RC just had a tragedy, losing fish due to lack of surface agitation/oxygenation when the tank ran without a skimmer for several hours. The skimmer provided the only means of surface agitation during that time.

We have all read reports from other reefers where such losses occurred after a power failure or mistake. What this does illustrate to us all is how fragile our comparatively tiny reef ecosystems are.

My sumpless 55 recently avoided the same crash purely by happenstance. I do have one of my powerheads directed at the surface but sometimes the suction cups give way and the current is directed downward. I also have a Whisper powerfilter, empty except for a mesh bag of carbon that provides surface agitation. The Whisper wasn't put there with the idea of surface agitation but merely as a means of using carbon.

A few weeks ago, my Knop skimmer cracked badly and the tank was skimmerless for
almost 2 weeks until I got a Remora to take its place. The surface agitation provided by the powerhead and Whisper is the only thing that saved me from the same thing.

Our systems, some of which are very sophisticated mechanically, depend on continuation of very basic principles that include gas exchange via water circulation and temperature control. With cold weather here in most parts of the country, electric power is vital and backups are needed. I'm confident that my 55 could get along just fine for several days without feeding, skimming, kalk dripping and to some extent, top off water. In fact, it has done so on more than one occasion for up to 3 full days without ill effect. The same is obviously not true for temperature and circulation.

Its a good idea to have at least two separate means of surface agitation and also some means for back up power to provide circulation and heaters in case of power failure.
Dick
 
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#3 ·
I have some Plenpax battery operated air pumps that run on D batteries; not very sophisticated, but they'd get the job done. They also only cost $12 a piece, then of course, there's the cost of the batteries and I really should get around to testing them to see how long one set of batteries would last.

The problem of course, is being around to turn the pumps on in the event of a power failure. I've solved that one by giving a couple of people on my block who are home during the day my cell phone #; if the power goes out, they'll call me and I'll come racing home to turn on the pumps; in theory, anyway.

Fortunately, I live pretty close to a transformer station, when we have lost power, it's been three hours max. If you're in an area that has long power outages you may want to consider a generator.

~Alice

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Reefkeeping is my life; I can't afford a hobby too!
 
#4 ·
Alice, I could build you a unit that would automaticaly turn your pump on and off in the event of a power outage. It would only be about 15 - 25 dollars in parts and maybe a frag
If your intrested, let me know, and I'll start building it. I'm going to order two of those pumps and make a them automatic also.

Scott
 
#7 ·
Doug, I'll just put the details, here, for everyone to see
It's very simple. All you need is a grounded cord (we use the term "pigtail" in the electrical trade) a J-box, normaly closed relay (120V coil), a base for the relay, and some 2 conductor bell wire.
The black and white wires, of the pigtail, connect to the "coil" terminals of the base (use the ground, of the pigtail, to ground the j-box, if it is metalic, I would prefer pvc in this case which the ground will be unused) Next you will need to modify the pump by cutting and splicing one of the power leads from the batteries. Connect one wire, from the bell wire, to one of the cut battery wires (you have two now that you cut the one in half), and the other end, of the bell wire, to one of the normaly closed terminals of the relay. Take the other bell wire and connect it to the remaing wire on the pump then to the other terminal of the normally closed contact. In stall the batteries and the pump should come on. When you plug the cord into the wall it should turn off. So how this works is when you power up the relay, the normally closed contact will open, and make the pump to turn off. When you lose power, the contact will close, causing the pump to turn on


If anyone would be intrested in me making one of these units, I would be more than happy. All I ask for is the cost of the materials and a frag if you can spare one. I will get a price for the materials in the next few days.
I am also looking into a battery operated pump, for circulation, to do the same thing.

Scott

[This message has been edited by ReefJunkie (edited 12-06-2000).]
 
G
#8 ·
OK I follow what your saying tho I am unfamiliar with the normally closed relay. Could said device be used to trigger an inverter ,say 150watts, to power a return pump such as a Sen 900 that is rated at 70w TIA

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I thought I was me, but we were wrong
email: geeflipr@internetcds.com
 
#9 ·
Doug, a normally closed relay is a relay that has contacts that are closed when the coil is not powered up, and when you apply power, the contacts open.
Yes this setup would work great for turning your inverter on and off. How you wire it, all depends if the invert has a control circuit, that turns the inverter on and off, or if it is just on as soon as you apply dc power to it. If you would like to do somethin glike this, just give me as much info as you can and I will put together a drawing for ya.

Scott
 
G
#10 ·
Thanks Scott I really appreciate the help

What I had in mind is a pair of 33AH deep cycle batteries in parallel(/) to up the storage capacity to 66AH or so, driving a 150 watt inverter that in turn would run a pump equal to a Sen 900 rated at 70 watts or maybe a mag7 strictly for emergancy circulation.
I get the feeling having it switch over to run the main pump automatically might make it more difficult= costly

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I thought I was me, but we were wrong
email: geeflipr@internetcds.com
 
#11 ·
Heh!!! Dick and Doug both would be better off buying a GENERATOR for the tanks and getting the Normally-Off DPDT type relay to start a generator motor with a regulated supply, then the battery only needs to be able to start the generator via a low voltage starter solenoid... Especially Dick (Tennessee has alot of hydroelectricity, but they also have many Ice storms in the winter...)

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Tom <"{{{{>(
(TDWyatt)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -Plato
 
#12 ·
td, The only problem wtih a generator is they don't always start, espcially when it's cold, and If you don't have a large gas tank they will run out of gas pertty quike. They also cost quite a bit and for most models you would have to be there to control the choke for starting unless you spent around 5k plus for a descent atuo start one. Generators are good to have when you can be there to fill the gas and make sure they start, but the idead Geedoug has, is alot more fool proof. If you uped the batteries and inverter size you could run a quite a bit of your tank for a long time.

geedoug it wouldn't cost much more, maybe ten-twenty bucks, to run your main pump of both supplys. I could give you a drawing or just build the unit for you. All you would have to do is connect it between your main power source and the 120V backup.

Scott
 
#13 ·
Hi Scott...sorry it's taken me so long to reply! I missed that this thread was active for some reason. What kind of frags are you interested in?

~Alice

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Reefkeeping is my life; I can't afford a hobby too!
 
G
#14 ·
My thought is that the Sen seems to produce enuff heat transfer to keep a 30 gal trash can full of SW at 80degrees in a 50degree laundry room so I should have good circulation and aux heating as a collaterol benefit. Obviously a short term thing but it may buy enough time to go to plan be or recharge the batteries


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I thought I was me, but we were wrong
email: geeflipr@internetcds.com
 
#15 ·
Hi Alice and Doug,

Alice I would be intrested in any frags you could spare
I will take anything. If you want me to build this, let me know, then we can schedule a time to meet, and modify your pump. Do you want any frags?

Doug to give you a idea: You could run the sen off the two 33AH batteries for about 124 hours without taking into consideration of the inverters consumption. So if the inverter took a extra 50w to run, it would cut your run time down to 66 hours. Add a small solar panel and you could run that pump, plus a 100w heater, for infinity, or until something gives out
I have wired a couple solar powered houses and it's amazing how much stuff you can run.

Scott
 
#16 ·
heya folks,

First, on the subject of agitation, I find that my wife supplies all the agitation I can stand.

Second, in the case of back-up power. I have to agree with tdwyatt, the generator is the way to go. And before you say that they are too expensive, I bought a 3000w single phase generator with a 7 gallon tank for $261 at Home Depot. Sure I have to start it, but I think most of us arent concerned about the short outtage...which, by the way, is all those batteries are going to be good for. If I lose power, my computer sends me an email. if the wife is home, a quick call will confirm it and she can start the generator. (push the prime button 3-5 times and pull the cord once and it starts, even at 10 deg) If she's not home, a call to the power company to confirm it and I'm on my way home.

I was looking into the deep cycle idea but it isnt cheap either, those **** inverters cost quite a bit and couple that with the batteries and my generator was a bargain. I dont know how well those cheap battery pumps work but you can get ones for 12 bucks which will turn on when the power is lost, and they might buy you a little time.

Here in New England, if we lose power (almost never luckily), I need to get the heat running asap or my house is cold in hours (parrot isnt very happy when that happends) so batteries on my tank, while usefule for a short time, would need to be quickly supplimented with the generator.

I think that the largest "dumb" UPS you can get cheaply and a power efficient power head is the easiest solution. But if you need heaters going, I dont believe that batteries are the answer...at least now when the house is at 50f.

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Bill Esposito
bespo@cereal.mv.com
JAqua for the AquaController 2
http//cereal.mv.com/jaqua.html
My Reef Page
http//cereal.mv.com/reef
The box said "Use Win 95 or better", I chose better so I run OS/2!
 
#17 ·
bill-e, Like you said "generators are the way to go" "If I lose power, my computer sends me an email. if the wife is home, a quick call will confirm it and she can start the generator. (push the prime button 3-5 times and pull the cord once and it starts, even at 10 deg) If she's not home, a call to the power company to confirm it and I'm on my way home." This works great if you know the powers out and you can rush home to start the generator. Actually I'm concernd with the first part of the outage. My wife and I are at work 9 hours a day, asleep 8 hours a day, and alot can go wrong in those time frames. The temp outside, in the winter, is around 0-32 deg and the house can cool off really quike. If the house cools, the tank will too, possibly causing lose of inhabitants. The batteries would keep the tank going long enough, to hookup a generator, or until power comes back on. Unfortunatlly a 3000 watt generator will not restore heat to most houses. If you are lucky you have a gas or oil furnace that can run off a small generator. I have electric heat so it would take a 10,000 watt+ generator too restore heat for my house. I really think having a battery backup is a great idea. I would disagree with the ups, do too the fact that most ups will only run a computer for about 20 minutes, and they cunsome about they same power as a mag7. To me that is a waste of money unless you can rush home to restore power.
Our tanks need costant gas exchange and heat to survive. Take anyone of these away and something is sure to die. You might wan't to rethink the generator idea because there will be times that you, or your wife, can't rush home to start it.

When you look at what we have invested into our tanks a battery backup is great insurance.

Scott
 
G
#18 ·
Where I live the winters are relativly mild, power outages are usually short term now and I have wood heat. Scotts idea sounds like it may be the ticket for buying enuff time to deal with the problem in person


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I thought I was me, but we were wrong
email: geeflipr@internetcds.com
 
#19 ·
Reefjunkie,

I dont want to get into a discussion about the merrits of batteries, as a secondary backup they are fine. I say secondary because I dont believe you should rely solely on batteries. It is my belief that a decent battery backup system will cost close to the same as a small generator....and if I had to choose only one, I'd choose the generator...although I'll agree that having both is the best way to go. I know of some reefkeepers who lost power for 9 hours recently and if it hadn't been for the unending supply of batteries (2500w UPS's) from their business, they would have never kept the tank going.

I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the amount of power that a deep cycle battery can produce, but I have to believe a mag 7 and a 200w heater would drain it after a few hours.

And for a few hours, I'm not worried about my reef, I know it will survive without problem for 10 hours or more (I know this because my wife turned off the wrong switch last winter while I was away and the tank went all day without power, and dropped to 72 deg)

It's also my belief that if a reef tank cant go for a few hours without power, then you are living on the edge....an accident waiting to happen.

In the past, I hadnt worried about the power going off while I sleep because my computer was in the next room, and the UPS alarm would wake me up. I've since moved it downstairs and would not be able to hear it. I will have to look into a cheap alarm for that purpose now....thanks for reminding me of that problem.

As for my 3kw generator running my heat, luckily my 200,000BTU hot air oil furnace will run on that, including the startup wattage. I will have to switch between the tank and the furnace in a prolonged outage, but most likely would just hook the tank up and use the wood stove to keep the house warm. By the way, it's 3.45F as I type this from New Hampshire

Lastly, a warning for those contemplating battery or generator backup. If you think that you will be able to go out and either rent or buy a generator at the time when the outage is prolonged, forget it. If what's happened in my area multiple times in the past holds true for the rest of the US, then any of the few $600 generators left will be "scalped" for a thousand or more, and most likely they will already be gone by the time you decide you need one. So dont wait, buy it before you need it!

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Bill Esposito
bespo@cereal.mv.com
JAqua for the AquaController 2
http//cereal.mv.com/jaqua.html
My Reef Page
http//cereal.mv.com/reef
The box said "Use Win 95 or better", I chose better so I run OS/2!
 
G
#20 ·
Bill I agree a generator is the best option for ultimate peace of mind but then a 10k autostart diesel ups the tank price considerably
Given that its just after noon here and outside temp is about 55 F with a low of 40ish my life support needs are a little different than in your part of the country. Plus the fact that I can get a lot of the stuff I need to put this together from work for WAY under retail makes this a really attractive option for me. Hope the Parrot has an electric blankey
BRRRRRR Im to old for that kinda cold

------------------
I thought I was me, but we were wrong
email: geeflipr@internetcds.com
 
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