Starting a new system... tips please

[three90s&125sump]

hello, I just joined today. This is an excellent site.

Semi-berlin (well mostly).


Well, OK, heres my plan I have 3 - 90 gallons tanks with 1000/GPH overflows, each has 2 - 14k 400watts MH's, a total of about 600# fiji live rock (most of which will be in the 125 gallon sump), ASM G-6 skimmer w/ 200mg ozonizer and ORP controller (48 inches tall X 8.5 chamber, 1200gal rating, circulates 3000gal/hr), 3 to 4 inches of live sand in each of the tanks and sump (not berlin style of course), calcium reactor w/ PH controller (also not berlin), auto RO top off, auto water change system (probably 15 gals/week), hhhhhmmmm, and a mag 36 return pump (about 2600 gph at 6 foot head), ETC...

Any good ideas on water circulation in the tank, I was thinking of mag 9's, with solinoid valves on the returns, plumbed to the outside of the tank. I hate powerheads.

The sump and skimmer and all controllers will be in the basement. The over flows will run to the first compartment in the sump, where the skimmer, ozone is and ORP controller set at 475mv, none of the water will continue to the next compartment with out running through the skimmer first, as the skimmer circulates slightly more water than the mag 36 will, any water that enters the second chamber, that is more than the mag 36 can send back up to the tanks, will go back to the first chamber to be run through the skimmer again. The second compartment will consist of the ORP probe, about 350# live rock and 3 to 4 inches of live sand (this compartment will be regularly fed to promote micro-fauna growth as well as have some PCs over it on a timer) and the third compartment (which is just to isolate the live sand from the return pump) will have the return pump, and auto top-off in it. As far as the auto water change device... well, I havent got all the details hammered out on that yet, but heres what I got so far.... from the over flows I will have Y coupler and small ball valve to regulate waste water removal (this will go to a drain, a bucket untill I know its working properly), there will be a large container for fresh salt water with a small pump in it, and the pump will be pluged into a conductivity controller (as will the pump for the auto top off) and thats all I got for that so far (I need to do some more research on this). I would guess that the electronic float valve hooked to the top-off water supply would keep replacing the water that is dripping out of the ball valve, so I would be continually diluting the water, so, I would have the conductivity controller set to turn the fresh saltwater pump on as the salinity became low(I think the controller could keep it with in a small range, better than I could do manually changing the water and manually adding top-off), if the salinity became too high the controller would turn on the top off water supply. Oh, yeah, the calcium reactor would be in there some where past the skimmer.


I realize that my plan, in theory, sound really good to have everything (except adds of salt water mix to the auto water change device every 2 months and other things like that) automated just for the system stability aspect, let alone the amount of maintanance it would save. But I realize that in reality it is probably very flawed. So, thats why I am here... to get feedback from others who know whats going on. So, feel free to critisize this as much as possible and give me any unforseen dangers to my plan, along with any tips and help you could give. I'll answer any questions you may have that will help you to help me. Also, feel free to ask any other questions so that I may help you. I'm gonna post this like this, weather its perfect or not. Thank you and please respond.

[Geoff]

Welcome to TRT!!!



fhew, that is a lot to read!

a couple of things that i have questions about. if your overflow can handle 1000gph, then why are you using a Mag36 as a return pump? how are you going to remove detritus if the water changes are going to be automated? if you are wanting an automated system like that, i really suggest going completely BB in all compartments. this way you can increase the flow everywhere to keep it in suspension until the skimmer is able to grab it.

this brings me to my next question. what kind of reef are you thinking?

i am not getting my head around your sump setup with the skimmer. is the skimmer dumping back into its own chamber? it needs to or you will run into either flooding problems with the chamber, which might not be a problem, or if the skimmer is faster than overflow, than the skimmer chamber could run dry damaging the pumps.

as for increasing the flow, i would use the Mag 9.5 for the return and put the Mag36 on a CLS. mechanical ball valves are nice, but i have found it more cost effective to just get two pumps. it is a good thing that the sump will be in the basement, Mags can be pretty noisy.

G~

[three90s&125sump]

OK, I figured I tried to put too much into one post.



"if your overflow can handle 1000gph, then why are you using a Mag36 as a return pump?"

There are three tanks 90 gallons each using a common sump with a total overflow rate of up to 3000 gallons. At a 6 foot head the mag 36 will do approximatly 2600 gallons. I wanted the most flow i could get with out exceding the flow of the skimmer.



"how are you going to remove detritus if the water changes are going to be automated?"

There will be no detritus to remove. I had a heavily fed 40 gallon with a very simular, though not automatic, set up. I never (in 3 years) had to remove detritus and there was never any (that i could see) in the tank. Nitrates and phosphates were nil, PH was ALWAYS 8.2, calcium was 425+ and DKH at 13-15 with no reactor and very little supplementing.



"if you are wanting an automated system like that, i really suggest going completely BB in all compartments."

The 3 to 4 inch sand bed is for nutrient export, calcification, buffering and the real bonus is the micro-fauna that thrives in a heavily fed tank. The spawning of the fauna is the best food there is for corals because thats what they eat in the wild.


"what kind of reef are you thinking?"

Each of the three different tanks will house slightly different animals (which reminds me if i use ozone is there a need for carbon?). One tank will have several anenamies (hmmm?) untill I'm confident they will not be moving. Another tank will have SPS and softies. And, the last tank will have LPS and some other (less aggressive) corals. Along with various utility animals and fish in each tank (clowns with the anenamies (hmmm? again).


"i am not getting my head around your sump setup with the skimmer. is the skimmer dumping back into its own chamber? it needs to or you will run into either flooding problems with the chamber, which might not be a problem, or if the skimmer is faster than overflow, than the skimmer chamber could run dry damaging the pumps."


As for the skimmer, there will be a sump with in the sump where the skimmer will be. The over flow from the tanks will arrive in the skimmer sump, as the skimmer pumps more water than the return pump the excess water (about 400 gallons/ hr) that goes to the second compartment will overflow back into the sump with the skimmer in it (just like the tanks will over flow back into the sump after the return pump pumps the water into it. That actually helped me out : the top off water sensor will have to be placed in the first compartment with the skimmer to prevent emptying out that compartment as it will be the variable level sump compartment.



"as for increasing the flow, i would use the Mag 9.5 for the return and put the Mag36 on a CLS. mechanical ball valves are nice, but i have found it more cost effective to just get two pumps. it is a good thing that the sump will be in the basement, Mags can be pretty noisy."

OK, the mag9s will be on the CLS, but they will be within the tank stand. I dont want to use a simple plug timer for the pump because it really damages the impellers and make alot of noise on start up. I like the idea of using solinoid valves on a good timer but I dont know where to get them. You mentioned that the mags are noisy; well, they are and I have been reluctant to buy a different type of pump for fear of poor reliability. Mags are very reliable and powerful (and noisy). I had a mag 7 run for 5 years (maybe longer) with out one single cleaning. The only reason I cleaned it was because I moved the tank.


Thank you very much geoff, I really appreciate the feed back.

[Geoff]

OK, sorry, that changes everything and it was my fault for not understanding. all of these tanks are on one sump. got it.

you plan on removing the SB on a regular basis? how will you do this easily without disrupting the system? if you do not remove the SB, then how will it export detritus? i like to have as much info as possible.

i am not a big fan of manifolds for different systems. i know people have done them fine, but if something goes wrong with on of the overflows or outlets the whole system is in jeopardy. i think this is a minor issue though.

will the CLS be on one system only? i would need to see a drawing on how you would plumb a CLS between 3 displays without running a risk of overflows.

G~

[three90s&125sump]

hello, again, geoff,

"you plan on removing the SB on a regular basis? how will you do this easily without disrupting the system? if you do not remove the SB, then how will it export detritus?"


I'm not planning on removing SB at all, the micro-fauna WILL "eat" the detritus and use it for energy to reproduce. The feeding of the SB is just to support more of the micro-fauna in order to increase spawning. Its a regular organic smorgasborg. Anywhere there is energy that can be used, there is a creature that will use it (some bacteria use ammonia for energy) and detritus definatly falls under a usable energy source, if it didnt, it would be inert and it wouldnt matter if it came out at all. The first 2 inches of the SB will have enough larger organisms in it to pull the detritus down to the lower part of the SB, most of the detritus will be gone by then. In the lower part of the SB there will be low oxygen bacteria (I forget the scientific name for these). And, againt all recomendations, I'm hoping for low amounts of anerobic bacteria as well in the very deepest parts of the SB to help some with the denitrification process. There will be no sand desterbing creatures in the sump (aside from the micro-fauna) so i will have no problems with contaminating the tank with hydrogen sulfide.


"i am not a big fan of manifolds for different systems. i know people have done them fine, but if something goes wrong with on of the overflows or outlets the whole system is in jeopardy. i think this is a minor issue though."

I'm not sure I know what you mean by "manifolds", could you elaborate on this please.


"will the CLS be on one system only? i would need to see a drawing on how you would plumb a CLS between 3 displays without running a risk of overflows."

The CLS will consist of three separate pumps plumbed to each tank individually. I will probably have 2 intakes and 6 outputs for each pump (depending upon the cost of the solinoid valves). There will be one intake in each of the lower rear corners (there may be a screen cleaning issue here) and one output in each corner and in the center of each long wall with oscillators on each one. I'm intersted in getting the new style of oscillators, like the "Sea Swirls". With this "ideal" circulation system plus the 800 GPH from the return pump, I should be moving around 20 times the tank volume per hour. As long as it doesnt become a sand storm in there, there will be no dead spots and this will definatly help with your worry of detritus build up. The tank with the anenames (tell me how to spell that) will have special consideration in reguards to the intakes.



Thank you, again, Geoff. You are helping me work this out better than I had anticipated.

[Geoff]

Originally Posted by three90s&125sump

I'm not planning on removing SB at all, the micro-fauna WILL "eat" the detritus and use it for energy to reproduce. The feeding of the SB is just to support more of the micro-fauna in order to increase spawning. Its a regular organic smorgasborg. Anywhere there is energy that can be used, there is a creature that will use it (some bacteria use ammonia for energy) and detritus definatly falls under a usable energy source, if it didnt, it would be inert and it wouldnt matter if it came out at all. The first 2 inches of the SB will have enough larger organisms in it to pull the detritus down to the lower part of the SB, most of the detritus will be gone by then. In the lower part of the SB there will be low oxygen bacteria (I forget the scientific name for these). And, againt all recomendations, I'm hoping for low amounts of anerobic bacteria as well in the very deepest parts of the SB to help some with the denitrification process. There will be no sand desterbing creatures in the sump (aside from the micro-fauna) so i will have no problems with contaminating the tank with hydrogen sulfide.

this does not work the way you are thinking. here is a great thread explaining what really happens in a SB. i just want you to have all the facts before you get to involved with your SB plan and regret it later. here is a great thread about a compromise. here is the thread that started it all. i believe there is a pic in there of underneath the LR after only 2 months. detritus will build up unless you siphon it out. i will let you make up your own mind, and leave it at that. i know this can get to be a hot topic for some.

ok, so you want to put a Mag 9.5 on each tank. got it. those oceans motions are pretty nice. they limit the amount of flow the least out of all of the inexpensive switching valves. what i plan on doing to my 125 when i get back is this. i am planning on putting in a coast to coast overflow on it. this is not just any coast to coast overflow, but one for the CLS. this is yardboys tank. this drawing at the beginning is the design i sent him. it shows this coast to coast overflow i am talking about.

Originally Posted by three90s&125sump

I'm not sure I know what you mean by "manifolds", could you elaborate on this please.

a minifold is a tube with many outlets on it directly after a pump. this is usually the way it is done if you are planning on using one pump for multiple returns. this allows all of the ball valves to be placed right next to eachother for easy adjustments of flow to each tank.

i would also recommend not using ozone. i think the risks of overdosing are far greater than the rewards. besides, if the SB is doing such a good job then why would you need it.

Originally Posted by three90s&125sump

Each of the three different tanks will house slightly different animals (which reminds me if i use ozone is there a need for carbon?). One tank will have several anenamies (hmmm?) untill I'm confident they will not be moving. Another tank will have SPS and softies. And, the last tank will have LPS and some other (less aggressive) corals. Along with various utility animals and fish in each tank (clowns with the anenamies (hmmm? again).

mixing biotopes and still using the same water column is a bit more difficult than you think. LPS and softies require higher nutrient levels in the water than a SPS system. when using the same water column they will all have the same nutrient levels. this can become a problem in the SPS tank. SPS have a difficult time competing with algae in these higher nutrient levels. then there is the chemical warefare. carbon is a great fix for this. the probem here is making sure the carbon is used effectively. if you can make it so the carbon is used on the drains for the tanks you should be fine. this is kinda risky in that it could get clogged and cause flooding. maybe having a massive section of carbon in the sump would also work. you need to make sure the water is cleaned before being distributed out to the other tanks. have you ever thought of just dividing the 125 in to 3 sections? each dedicated to their own tank. i know this would mean you need three skimmers, but you can fine tune the skimmer for the amount of nutrients you want in each system. cranked for the SPS, dryer for the other two systems. you will also not have to worry about carbon except in the softie tank.

G~

[three90s&125sump]

Geoff,

I absolutly know that you know way more than me about keeping saltwater systems. There is no dispute there. Please, don't think i'm disrespecting you for what I'm about to say. I have been reading your posts and from what I've read you really know what your talking about. All I'm saying is what I know from past experience with keeping reefs.


I have, now, a 40 gallon breeder, no sump 70# live rock, excaliber 100 skimmer hang on, 2 to 4 inches of live sand, 175 watt 10k metal halide, 4 actinic 24 watt PCs.

I have had this tank for 2 years. 1 year ago it had about 20 corals in it and a couple utility fish and was at my house doing very well. I used RO top off, did 15 percent water changes on it, tested it regularly. Calcium levels were always 400+ usually around 425, DKH was always 11+ usually around 14, phosphates always 0, nitrates always 0, specific gravity always 1.024, temp was between 77 and 80, ph was always 8.1 to 8.3, ETC... point being that I took very good care of the system and worked very hard to do it. Something I never did was remove detritus because it was never present.

One day (almost 1 year to the day) I got up and didn't want to work that hard for it any more, so I gave it away... to someone who didn't know the first thing about salt water set ups. They thought table salt was good enough, they went to walmart when they broke the MH and bought a mogal base incandesant bulb (which didn't work obviously), they used tap water with 20 PPM (I tested it) for top off. They waited till the tank was half empty to top it off, they burned up all the powerheads, including the skimmer, in less than 4 months. They didn't do one single water change on it. Needless to say they killed everything in the tank and let it all rot inside. Leather corals, frog spawn, brains, candy, fish, everything. Well they bought new fish killing them one after the other, till finally they got 2 damsels to live, they fed those damsels like there were 40 of them in there, flake food, everyday.



Now you might be asking your self "Why the hell didn't he help them, or, something?" Well I was having some very involving personal issues that I don't care to talk about and I was over 50 miles away from them.


About a month ago, I asked if I could have the tank back and they were more than happy to give it back. When I went to go get it and I saw it, they explained to me the above mentioned problems they had with it. After I heard the horror of what they had done to the tank, I tested everything. Calcuim was low, around 325, as was DKH at about 4, phosphates were at <1, nitrates slightly higher at <7, PH was 7.9, specific gravity was very high at 1.031 (the tank was only half full at the time).

So, I disasembled it, took it home and put it back together. The funny thing is that through all of that the micro-fauna was still there doing what it was suposed to do>>> process waste. Beyond that there was no algae and most importantly the point of this entire post>>>>> there was very little detritus, I would say that if I could have gathered it up out of the bottom of the tank and out of the bottom of the buckets I carried the rock home in, there may have been as much as 1/8 of a cup of it.

I did a water change on it, about 20 percent fixed the lighting and thats it, except top off water(I'm using mains water from city RO) since I got it back. Nitrates are back to <1, phosphates are <.5. There are 2 fish in it and I've been feeding the micro-fauna.


I have disagreed with retailers and just about everyone else about the ability of deep live sand to process waste for several years. I don't expect anyone to do anything any different than they are doing now unless it is not working for you. The deep sand bed is working for me, I know it works and I will continue to use it. It has great buffering and elemental capabilities along with that. It make for an extremly stable environment for the tank inhabitants.


I'm sorry if I sound a little sharp I don't mean to. I hope to get to be as knowledgable as you are one day, Geoff. Thank you for the great help you have given me with my new system so far. Please continue to help me.

[Geoff]

no worries mate.

i know there are many ways to run a system. i just want people to have all of the info first then make up their mind. if you want a DSB, that is fine, i will adapt my posts to reflect this. i have run every conceivable system type for the past 20years. i know which works in what and what doesn't.

there are two people i know that have kept a DSB viable for over 4 years and they both have thier LR suspended over the sand bed. this keeps the posphate wicking to a minimum. phosphates are your enemy. BTW-if phosphates show up on your test kit, then it is already to late. phosphates will not show up on test kits untill all of the calcium carbonate structures have reached saturation.

what do you think about dividing the 125 sump into three chambers? i just feel that if you are going to go through all the trouble of setting up 3 different biotopes, you should treat them as the seperate biotopes they are.

G~

[three90s&125sump]

Everyone is partial to one specific way of doing things or another. I know of several very well known "experts" that have been running DSB for 10+ years with great success and I'm sure you know poeple (perhaps yourself) that do something else (maybe even longer) with great success.


I would like to know more about suspending my live rock over the sand bed. I have had trouble in the past with (what appears to be) hydrogen sulfide build up under the rocks in the very bottom of the show tank. I don't want any anerobic bacteria to form in the show tank (aside from within the live rock) because I will be having larger sand sifting creatures in there and I would hate to have that destroy my system because of an over active wrass.

Well, I already spent $800 ($1200 retail) on a large single skimmer. I don't think my pockets are deep enough to spend more money on 2 more skimmers. I don't know very much about the husbandry of specific creatures (I know you do), so perhaps I could come to a resonable compromise on the creatures I house in the tanks. I really like zoanthids and just about every LPS (my favorites) there is. Softies are nice (I would like to have at least a couple vatiations) and SPS are a given in my system. I know that there are tanks that hold a relativly equal number of SPS, LPS, softies and some anemones and have been run like that for years with a DSB. I also know that it is difficult and that it takes special consideration with filtration. My understanding is that carbon and ozone are two routes that can be taken to accomplish this. I like the idea of having ozone run with a conductivity controller. I think carbon is a pain because you have to change it regularly. And to be Honest with you, In the future I would like to combine all three tanks into a larger system, perhaps 500 gallons, when money (and space) permits


In reguards to my very limited husbandry knowledge: Do you know of any really good books? I've been looking for a good one to read. I get alot of information from books. In fact, up untill now all the information I got was from books and experience. I knew more about saltwater than my pet store owner in 2 month of researching. I have never gotten the same answer about compatable speacies from two different people before (slight exageration). So I would like to have a good book that breaks this down, so I can make more informed descisions about the creatures I house.

[Geoff]

for corals i use Eric Borneman's Aquarium Corals constantly.
for fish, pretty much any book written by Scott W. Michael.

for general husbandry i pretty much search the boards. working at a University for the past 8 years and seeing what they do to keep critters alive has really opened my eyes. i find that the books written for hobbiest seem all wrong. those that i have talked to in academia can not understand why we do the things we do. reading the boards you get a good cross section of what people are doing.

i have never used ozone, has always scared me, so i do not know the exact plumbing involved. it is important that any water leaving the sump be cleaned of any toxins from the other tanks. i do not know if ozone is that specific or not. i think you will still be needing copious amounts of carbon to keep the toxins under control. another trick used to remove toxins is running a UV sterilizer directly in front of the skimmer. the UV light breaks down many compounds into their smaller components and allows the skimmer to remove them easier.

i am having a hard time hunting down tdwyatt's pics of his tank during setup. what he did was take 4" PVC and cut it into sections as tall as the SB. he then drilled large holes in the sides of the PVC pipe to let critters travel in and out of the pipes easily. the LR is then placed on top of these PVC pylons. allowing good water movement over the entire SB surface.

G~

[three90s&125sump]

Just so you know I have always kicked around the idea of running a BB tank. I have also thought about using Eco Systems "Miricle Mud" in lieu of the sandbed I have read very good reviews of it and it seems to (from what i've read) do the same thing as the DSB, with out the phosphate and nitrate build up that is often associated with the DSB. The reason why I have never gone with the BB tank, is because I dont like the looks of it and I love the bio-diversity of the DSB.I'M a "hugh skimmer" fan, which is another reason why I've been reluctant to try MM, they say it replaces skimmers.



"another trick used to remove toxins is running a UV sterilizer directly in front of the skimmer"


I don't have the money to buy a UV light big enough, or to buy enough of them to run in series to cover the rate of flow from my over flow.(2700 GPH). I would have to buy 18-36 watt uv lights to cover that flow.

"i have never used ozone, has always scared me,"


Could you point someone in my direction that knows about ozones pro and cons. I have never used it before either but they say it will increase the efficiency of your skimmer by as much as 100%.


I have been reading more posts.... something I'm concerned about now is buying the right LR to start with. I been using fiji premium, from advanced aquatics in Schaumburg, IL. I havent had any problems with it. Do you have a suggestion of a better kind of LR? Tonga, Buna, Florida, branch, plate, ETC...

[yardboy]

Jumping in at the tail end of this thing, see my webpage, as mentioned earlier,

http://home.comcast.net/~danleyjr/150setup.htm

Halfway down the page is the way I suspended my rock, on a platform made of eggcrate and short (slightly longer than the depth of your sand bed) pieces of 1" PVC, with notches cut into the bottom to let critters move in and out.

[three90s&125sump]

I've seen egg crate set ups like that before. I've never tried them tho. That system looks like its gonna rock when its done. I want to do some plumbing work like that on my stuff.


I got a question about this set up.... What is the particle size of your sand? It appears to be about .1 to .5 mm diameter. My sand is much larger than that. There are some peices that are that size but it is primarily 1 - 2 mm diameter with some that is even larger, up to 3 mm. Its called Aragonite Seaflor special Grade.

Am I using the wrong size sand for a DSB?

"Jumping in at the tail end of this thing, see my webpage, as mentioned earlier,"

Also you didnt't jump in this at the tail... This is just the beginning.

[three90s&125sump]

ok, Geoff,



I looked back at the links you provided earlier, with the spray bar and such. I got to thinking about it... What if instead of a spray bar you build the entire platform hollow silicone it to the bottom of the tank and drill holes in it and plug your pump right into it.


You guys got me second guessing my technique....now what am I gonna do. Bah, now I'm all bent out of shape. I'm gonna have to re-think my entire system.


Just kidding guys, I'd rather re-think it now than re-build it later.

[yardboy]

You have to build any design two times, once in your head and once in your hands!

With the eggcrate like that, it doesn't rock at all, I used tie wraps to hold it together. The sand is very fine, oolitic by Aragamax. If you're wanting the denitrifying effect of a dsb, the finest sand (thus highest surface area) is what you want. The reson I used the platform is to "hedge my bets".. I like a sandbed, but if it started giving me problems, I could snatch it out with out disturbing the rock structure. One consideration in a dsb is not directly the detritus, as Geoff was referring to, but what the detritus turns in to. The dsb can convert nitrates to nitrogen gas, but it can only sequester phosphates, stored away for bacteria and algae to get to at a later date.