Pro Needed!!!need Help On Refuge Measurments Please(refuge Project)

[PHIL GUY]

They Say In This Hobby ,its Good To Make A Refuge/sump To Keep Nitrates Down Almost To Zero..thats What Im Trying To Do..thanks For Any Help

[PHIL GUY]

Originally Posted by Geoff

yank everything out and put the skimmer and drains on one end and the return pump on the other. that is what i would do and that is what i have. i would not put sand/algae/LR any thing in there.

G~

WHY WOULD YOU NOT PUT ANYTHGING ELse in there?

[Fly Guy]

Originally Posted by PHIL GUY

WHY WOULD YOU NOT PUT ANYTHGING ELse in there?

Because some people in this hobby, myself included believe it is better to set your system up to remove excess organics permanently, instead of to a place that not only needs them to thrive , but also constantly releases them back into the water column as they do what they are there for in the first place.

If the sump is clear of these things, your skimmer can permanently remove them as it does its job, and anything that settles in the sump can be siphoned and or vacuumed out when you do your water changes and permanently removed.

On the note of the skimmer "doing its job" as i mentioned........ if you are moving any more water by the skimmer than it can process, then all of this excess warter is unskimmed dirty water going back to the tank. Ideally your return pump should be matched to how much water your skimmer can process, so as little unskimmed water makes it back to the tank as possible.

AS far as exact placement of your baffles, you put them where they will fit. In your case using a mag 24 return pump, you are going to want 2" in between them, and 2" underneath the "under" baffle(s). You can get away with less, but moving that much water through that sump you cant. If you put them any closer the bubbles wont have time to rise and the baffles wont do their job before the water makes it to the return pump.

[PHIL GUY]

Originally Posted by Fly Guy

Because some people in this hobby, myself included believe it is better to set your system up to remove excess organics permanently, instead of to a place that not only needs them to thrive , but also constantly releases them back into the water column as they do what they are there for in the first place.

If the sump is clear of these things, your skimmer can permanently remove them as it does its job, and anything that settles in the sump can be siphoned and or vacuumed out when you do your water changes and permanently removed.

On the note of the skimmer "doing its job" as i mentioned........ if you are moving any more water by the skimmer than it can process, then all of this excess warter is unskimmed dirty water going back to the tank. Ideally your return pump should be matched to how much water your skimmer can process, so as little unskimmed water makes it back to the tank as possible.

AS far as exact placement of your baffles, you put them where they will fit. In your case using a mag 24 return pump, you are going to want 2" in between them, and 2" underneath the "under" baffle(s). You can get away with less, but moving that much water through that sump you cant. If you put them any closer the bubbles wont have time to rise and the baffles wont do their job before the water makes it to the return pump.

thanks that was so helpful ..the first room in the sump will be for my berlin bags(far left),,should i start the first baffle about 2 inchs from the berlin bags? first baffle 16x16x8?..my sump is 16 inchs high remember (as seen on diagram above)..with the first baffle being 8 inchs,that would be 8 inchs left be4 the top of the sump?....the second faffle should be 2inches from the next baffle you say and 2 inch of the floor of the sump?.should the second baffle sit about 2 inchs higher then the first baffle?..and would the 3rd baffle be 2 inchs away from the 3rd baffle sitn on the sum floor about half as high as the first baffle?.. like 4x16x16?..i guess after we get the first 3 baffles going on the berlin side(1st room to the righht...we can go over to the far right side of sump and add the other 3 baffles were the mag goes?...are you with me so far?..im i getn the idea? ..im totaly confused,lol

[Bergovoy]

How are you going to do your water TOP OFF? And is that going to be automatic or are you going to do it by hand via bucket...?

This will determine the size of the return area, (where the pump is going)

Is the pump going to be mounted internal or external?

You want the fuge area to be as big as possible, and for us to do that, we need to know the minimum size for the return section...

(Label the areas as: DRAIN ----- FUGE ------ RETURN)

Number the baffles starting from the left to right, so that the first baffle on teh left, the 8 inch high baffle, will be baffle #1, the next ffle, the one that is two inches to the right and two inch above thebottom, will be baffle #2, etc...

And after we get the answers to the the top off questions, we can figure out the minimum size in the sump that we need to achieve. We then have to figure out the amount of water to anticipate that will drain back into the sump in case of power failure..

So, after the questions about top off are answered, you will need to figuer out how much water will drain back into the sump.

For that, you need to measure from the top of water to teh inside top of piope in the lowerst return pipe in your tank, (or the bottom of teeth in an overflow)

So, call me to discuss, or post teh answers so we can calculate the sizes of of the areas...


Bill

[Geoff]

do you know what the recommended water level for your particular skimmer is? most are around 8" so you should be fine, but you might want to double check this measurement to be sure.

G~

[PHIL GUY]

I JUST GOT IN FROM work..i shut the power down to my pump and 4 1/2 inches of water filled my sump.....40g sump at 16inch high..thats 2.5 gallons an inch..4 1/2 inch of water would equal .thats roughly around 11 gallons of water into my sump from the main tank..im i right?

[Bergovoy]

Hey, Phil,

We talked but we did not discuss the skimmer, and you kept wanting to reduce the drain area down to 6 inches....

My skimmer would not fit into that area, (dont forget about the plumbing (and drain (discharge pipe), that you want to pipe back into the drain area, so it goes through the bubble baffles)

This really makes the area you have to deal with VERY small.

You can reduce the baffles to just two baffles on each side of the fuge, starting from the left, the first baffle would be UP, then down, (or Under over), and then on the other side of the fuge towards the return section, you would want the same configuration, (under over)

this will pick up four inches overall.

And according to your, the return lines that go into yout display tank, have Syphon break holes drilled into the pipe at about 1" below the water surface, after the pipe comes out of the overflow area and then goes back down below the water line.

1Inch at 72x24x24 equals 7-1/2 gal per inch, or approx 7-1/2 gallons will spill back into the sump if power failure. (I would round up to 10 gallons to allow for water in the piping)

In the sump, you will need 4 inches from the top to allow for power failure and water rise.

This will make the baffles 12 inches (from the bottom) You may have to prop your skimmer up to achieve the optimum depth, consult your skimmer mfg for more information.

If you are going to put your pump internal, you will need at least five inches to keep the pump submerged, then you will want 10 gallons on top of that to allow for evaporation and to keep your water top off schedule to three days, (assuming 3 gallons perday evap)

This will mean that you need RETURN section at least 14inches


So, starting from the left, (Drain - baffle 1 - baffle 2 - fuge - baffle 3 - baffle 4 - Return)

Drain = 8 inches
baffle 1 @ 8 inches, (up 2 inches from bottom)
baffle 2 @ 10 inches, (13 inches tall from bottom)
Fuge = 10 inches
baffle 3 @ 18 inches, (2 above sand bed and 2 inches above water line)
baffle 4 @ 20 inches, (13 inches from bottom)
Return = 14 inches


this will only give you 8 gallons in the return section.

you will be topping off the evaporated water daily... Sorry.

If you do not top off daily, you will run your pump dry.


Things you can do to help...

Mount the pump EXTERNALLY. This will help in several ways, but it will give you an additional day for adding your top off water.... (it will also reduce the heat transfer from the pump to the water in your tank)

REduce the pump size, to reduce teh spacing in between the baffles....

Make the Fuge smaller.

Verify the skimmer size and layout to determine the exact dimension of the DRAIN area so that the skimmer will fit into the sump...

Add an auto top off device, so you can add water to the top off resevoir less frequently, while the top off resevoir supplies the tank...

(i.e. Have a top off resevoir of about 15 gallons, (or direct from a RO/DI water source))

If you do this, your Return can be much smaller as the top off will kick in for as little as a gallon.

The longer the span for top off the bigger the return needs to be.

The more work you put into it, (more top offs), the smaller the return section can be.

Add or build a seperate FUGE, that would be a seperate tank, that is fed by one of the drain lines, and then the new fuge will gravity spill back into the original sump, (drill a hole ner the top of the new and seperate fuge, and pipe that hole to the return section of the original sump),

So, when the fuge fills up, it will overflow back into the original sump.

Tap into oneof the drain lines, and install a valve so you can choke or adjust the amount of water that goes into teh sump or the fuge..

My reccomendations::

I have two...

First, the easiest: Buy a rubgbermaid or similar strainer basket, that will be small enough, but as big as possible, that will fit into your sump. (assume your sump will have TWO sections, with three baffles, (two inch overall spacing for the baffles)

On the DRAIN side of the sump, it will be 10 inches, then the baffles, then the RETURN section. The return section will be 22 inches.

Inside that 22 inch section, FLOAT the rubbermaid strainer, and put in a bunch of chaetos


This will give you a fuge of sorts, growth, slwo flow through the little strainer, and the stuff is contained and will not get sucked into the pump...

Second option, is to find another sump. Either taller or longer or both...

I would not go with a seperate fuge, as the potential for spills are greater...

I would reduce the pump size to something that draws less then 150 watts, (or even less). Go as low as possible, to get 3-4x turnover...

Any other circulation is done through your powerheads or flow devices.

This way, you can control your filter flow, reduce power consumption, heat generation, and just about everyo other benefit imaginable....

Good luck.

Call me when you get home and digest some of this...

Bill

[Bergovoy]

Yes, that would be 11-1/2 gallons.

That is worse then we estimated, by 1-1/2 gallons.

So, now we have to make room for 11-1/2 gallons PLUS the depth of the pump...

Check out melevsreef.com and his section on Sumps.

And do some reading on the pros and cons of sumps.

My guess is that for the size of the tank you are dealing with, (180 gal plus the sump of 40 gallons), is just a bit small.

But, for now, figure out how much space your skimmer needs and get back to me.

You can call me to discuss this all day saturday.

Bill

[PHIL GUY]

i think im just going to go with a seperate tank for the ref with the gravity idea..the idea for my 40g sump just wont do it..were tweakn an inch here,an inch there..it will be alot easier with a seperate set up....i think i have some what of an idea now how im going to build this...hows this look bill?

[Geoff]

why not just run that one drain into the fuge and skip the valve diverter idea?

G~

[PHIL GUY]

it would be to much pressure going into the ref.so i would need a valve to differ to the gravity comn out of the ref

[Bergovoy]

Phil, relocate the valve at the refugium to after the tee, (closer to the sump)

This is to choke the amount down to force the water into the refugium, (i.e. control the amount of water that goes into the fuge)

the intent is to slow down the flow that goes into teh fuge to about 100 gph or less. (I like a slow flow)

I would not put a sock on the overflow coming from the fuge, (you dont want to strain out any pods or stuff)

If you want to put a sock on the drain going into the fuge, that would be okay...

Also, for the basic or general plumbing suggestions:

Use UNIONs and valves (maybe even a 'tru-union' valve) This will allow you to perform maintenance easier, and to shut off the water coming out of the thetank.

(valves should be just after teh bulkheads in the tank, and right after the pump)

Basically, look at the the tru-union valves, or seperately, and figure out where you want to hold the water if you had to do something, (like change the pump, etc...

If you use threaded bulkheads at the tank, (threaded on the outside of the tank), then it will be easier to change things or take things apart later on.

On the inside of the tank, I would use a slip fitting for the drains and suction lines, and for the exhaust or return lines, I would use threaded.

You will need a filter / strainer for the bulkhead on the refugium, and I use STOCKMAN standpipes, (actually a modified version of it).

Also, you may want to look into the ELECTRICAL section of Home Depot or whatever hardware store you use, for thier pvc fittings. They have 'LONG' 90s. They are rounded, not sharp hard bends.

This will dramitically reduce head loss, and actually looks really cool

Anyways, good luck, and keep us posted...


bill

[PHIL GUY]

thanks for all your help bill.ill keep you posted. i should have time by the end of the month to build it.my friend from h.s owns the lfs here..its an all saltwater store he is going to drill the 10 or 20g tank tank for free for me and hook me up with bulkheads..any ideas what to put in the ref? how many inch of sand bed? live rock? greens? snails? hermit?

[Bergovoy]

Hello, Glad to hear things will work out for you.

as for reccomendatioons... That is a personal question. It depends on what you like and what you think you can keep.

SPS and some creatures require more equipment and light and stuff that you may bnot have.

Figure out what you want to keep, read up on them, find out what they need, and figure out if you can keep them or not.

Do the same thing for fish, in that figure out which fish you want to keep and find out what they need, and how best to acclimate them and introduce them into your tank.

If you want a timid fish, it is probably best to add them at the beginning, before other fish become territorial and or aggressive...

So, figure out what you want, do some reading and let us know how your plan unfolds...

Bill