Small scale test with flatworm exit/observations (long)

[RonSF]

I'm getting ready to finally dose my tank this weekend, but before taking the big Flatworm Exit plunge, I wanted to try it in a controlled environment as well as test an interesting hypothesis suggested by the person that I bought my two bottles from. Mine came from Jenn at Imagine Ocean. Those of you who have been following others experiences with the stuff may recognize her as the LFS owner who lost all of her fish over 4 days when she dosed, after seemingly doing everything right. <http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/s...it&pagenumber=1>
Her downfall may have been the hidden numbers in the unseen crevices of her live rock. Who knows, at this point, really? Her untested theory certainly seemed worth a try, however, and since I had the worms and she didn't, I decided to test it.

The thought was that it might be iodine that the worms concentrate in their tissue. Just a guess, but anybody who has siphoned these through a filter sock has noticed the color that they dye the fabric. They smell like iodine/iron/blood to me as well. Wouldn't it be convenient if we could dose for these guys and then neutralize the toxins with something like Prime that detoxifies iodine?

I began by sampling 3 oz. of tank water with 100-125 live flatworms. My test, using the Salifert iodine kit, showed no detectable iodine (I've been dosing with Kent's Concentrated Iodine, but that's a different thread). I then added 1 drop of Flatworm Exit. This produced a concentration over 20 times stronger than the initial recommended dose (I wasn't looking for subtleties with this test). Much to my surprise, I didn't witness the frentic behavior others have noted. In fact, until the first one melted into an orange puff of "smoke" at about 5 minutes, I saw no changes in their behavior.

At 5 minutes I tested for iodine again. This time the test generated a layer of liquid on top the color of a pale ale. The test reads in shades of pink/magenta, so presumably this means no iodine (Habib???).

After 10 minutes, there were approximately 10-15 melted worms, but still no signs of distress amongst the others. The water, however looked like I had added 4 or 5 drops of Lugol's. Another test yielded similar results: this time a hearty amber color and still no hint of pink.

I was dismayed to see, over the cours of the next hour, very few additional melted worms and few worms that weren't moving. I did notice that after about 10 minutes the worms were no longer sticking to the sides of my container, but they looked as happy as ever slowly meandering around in flatworm fashion. I added a second drop of FE at around 1 hour and still never saw the dance of death or appreciable losses before I retired for the night about 90 minutes after the first drop went in. At that point I'd estimate about 80% attrition, tops.

This morning there seem to be roughly half of the bodies left, and absolutely no signs of life (let's hope, at 40x dosage!). I think that I have ruled out the magic bullet of iodine as the bad guy toxin (unless a yellow result in the iodine test counts). It was a long shot, but given our rudimentary knowlege of these guys, worth a shot. Most likely the toxin is far more elusive and complex than a testable reef compound.

I wonder, however, if my mortality rates were consistent with others. Could the immediate "dead" worms that others report be just free swimming, but live worms instead. Think it is possible that it really takes many hours to kill most of them, even at a much higher dosage, or were my results vastly atypical? I'd love to hear what others think.
-Ron

[JennM]

One correction I'd like to add, Ron, I lost 6 of 13 fish, (I can't count...I forgot the clowns...) post-treatment and I removed 8 of them alive and stressed, about 15 hours post-treatment. The foxface died in the tank, as did one chromis. I lost: Purple tang, foxface, marine betta, 2 green chromis and one banggai cardinal. Survivors were: the other banggai, 2 false percs, six lined wrasse, red fairy wrasse and mandarin and one green chromis.

If the iodine test doesn't detect iodine even if you're dosing, are you sure it's not the test kit?

Given your results at the worms NOT dying, I'm wondering if we even had the same type of flatworm? Mine were dropping like flies within about 30 seconds of dosing, the tank was "snowing" with bodies, and those that didn't die right away wiggled for their tiny lives until they died. The water took on a yellow hue, and the polyfilter pads were an ungodly colour. I'll attach pix of the water, ~16 hours post treatment, when we'd ripped it all apart (oh the humanity) to retrieve the fish, and I'll post another follow up with a pic of the polyfilter. Whatever it was, it was NASTY. I was too busy panicking to take a picture while it was snowing flatworms...

The first pic, below, was taken BEFORE the carnage ... not too long before, either.

Jenn

[JennM]

Here's during...

Notice the yellow hue to the water. By now, the whole place stunk like cut Xenia - to the point where I was apologizing to people who came in. I realize that ripping rocks out usually stirs up detritus - but I run carbon so the water is usually crystal clear, has no yellow or green tinge to it... this photo doesn't really capture the extent of the yellowing, but here it is anyway...

[JennM]

Here's the spent polyfilter. This is the sort that is white when it's new, Polyfilter by Poly-Bio Marine, Inc.

I've never seen this colour before on a Polyfilter

Jenn

[JennM]

Here's the reef right now. Just took the picture. We've added some of the remaining fish back, haven't added the six-lined wrasse, or the mandarin back (want to make sure pods are sufficient for Mandarin...) We brought some of our corals from home in too...that's another story...

Jenn

[RonSF]

My little sample test did turn the water a tint of the same color that your polyfilter turned, but the water didn't look cloudy. With enough flatworm puree in there, though, it might turn cloudy as well. I got the stink you experienced too, just a slow burn type of death instead of a flamethrower.

Did you look closely to see if the flatworms were really dying right away, or just loosing their grip? Like I said, the slowness of the results I got were quite a surprise to me.

-Ron

[JennM]

Well I "assumed" (I know, I know...) that since they popped off whatever they were fastened to, that they died. Some wriggled then just quit. It was definitely death on a single dose because I have not seen another once since.

Jenn