May proposed tank set-up

[wespastor]

The attatched illustration will help guide the disscusion as to whether this system will work (i.e. Keep healthy water.) I know that to some degree that filtration is linked to foods but I do not want this post to digress to a debate over foods and which is better. I simply want to know if this system will keep healthy water. I want to know the the potential failures of such a system. Most systems are destined to fail at some point I am trying to get a handle on what could fail and why beforehand so that I can be better prepared to counter act the failure.

Thanks so much for your input.

[Loverotties]

The HOT skimmer need a higher water level and a canister isn't a good retun pump,unless it has nothing in it and you clean every couple days.

[OneDummHikk]

In no particular order:

Don't use check valves. The salt creep can stop them up and give you a false sense of security by thinking you are protected when you aren't.

Canister Filters. They tend to be nitrate factories if you use them for biological filtration. Use it to run phosban (or similar) and/or carbon in them, don't use it for bilogical filtration. I wouldn't use it for the return pump though. It will work for that purpose but it limits you to the flowrate that you need through the sump instead of being able to adjust it to the flowrate you need for the media in it.

Overflow box. I would seriously consider drilling the bottom of the tank (if it isn't tempered) so that you can drop the overflow box. If it breaks siphon, the return pump will empty the sump out and burn up the pump when the sump runs dry.

In the bottom left, in the sump, you have "biomedia" listed. What are you referring to as biomedia? I would consider duplicating the refugium in the sump as well if you are referring to some other kind of biomedia.

Curiosity gets me, but why a skimmer on both tanks instead of putting them both in the sump?

Is that designed to be a seahorse tank? The "preggo males" If so, I don't see anything to keep the water at the temp for seahorses.

To answer your question though, as its designed, the only potential issue as far as water quality itself my be the biomedia and/or the canister filter being nitrate factories.

HTH

[wespastor]

Originally Posted by Loverotties

The HOT skimmer need a higher water level and a canister isn't a good retun pump,unless it has nothing in it and you clean every couple days.

Sorry wrong pic modified since that first go round.

New pic

[pledosophy]

If DSH stand for dwarf seahorse you have quite a few issues.

There are not many keeping dwarf seahorses in a 50g, there is going to be a challenge in that itself.

Dwarf seahorses will go over the top of an overflow box, especially the fry. Your going to want to drill the tank and run strainers instead. IME even if you try to guard the overflow with sponges, or veil then the water and seahorses just goes over the top.

That is a lot of flow for dwarf seahorses if your listing the gh in what it will return to your tank as.

In one diagram it shows the return as a cannister, the other as a return pump which is it? "line up from cannister"

I would ditch the bio media and skimmer IMO and just run that as a refugium. If you can go bigger then a 0g that would be awesome, a 20 or 30g would be better. You can even use a rubbermaid container as a sump, saves money and come in a larger variety of sizes.

There is no reason to have an intake refugium in the tank if it is for dwarfs, the fry eat the same foods as the adults, bbs. The Albany Aquarium has been breeding dwarfs for 50 years with the fry in the tanks, it works well.

Onedumbhikk makes a lot of good points as well. In order for people to help you with your system it really helps to know what you'll be keeping in it. For example if that was for a SPS tank, it would be horrible, for a planted tank with just inverts, might be great.

HTH

[wespastor]

Originally Posted by pledosophy

If DSH stand for dwarf seahorse you have quite a few issues.

Originally Posted by pledosophy

There are not many keeping dwarf seahorses in a 50g, there is going to be a challenge in that itself.

Dwarf seahorses will go over the top of an overflow box, especially the fry. Your going to want to drill the tank and run strainers instead. IME even if you try to guard the overflow with sponges, or veil then the water and seahorses just goes over the top.

That is a lot of flow for dwarf seahorses if your listing the gh in what it will return to your tank as.

In one diagram it shows the return as a cannister, the other as a return pump which is it? "line up from cannister"

I would ditch the bio media and skimmer IMO and just run that as a refugium. If you can go bigger then a 0g that would be awesome, a 20 or 30g would be better. You can even use a rubbermaid container as a sump, saves money and come in a larger variety of sizes.

There is no reason to have an intake refugium in the tank if it is for dwarfs, the fry eat the same foods as the adults, bbs. The Albany Aquarium has been breeding dwarfs for 50 years with the fry in the tanks, it works well.

Onedumbhikk makes a lot of good points as well. In order for people to help you with your system it really helps to know what you'll be keeping in it. For example if that was for a SPS tank, it would be horrible, for a planted tank with just inverts, might be great.

HTH

The HOT Surface skimmer there are a number of reasons I have to do the HOT. Suffice it to say that at least for now that most likely will not change.

There will be a fine mesh that completely covers the top of the surface skimmer. It is not likely that it will clog especially with some one (me) paying attention. As for the DSH getting caught up in the surface skimmer it is not likely either. ALL of the video and photos I have which amount to hundreds upon hundreds one of which was a non-stop video covering 8 consecutive days showed that the DSH and it fry were predominately Benthic. And with the surface skimmers flow about 15 inches away from where the DSH hang out (pun intended) it should not pose a threat or problem. Then on the other hand who knows what will happen and what the live stock will do once we get it in our tanks (i.e. some species that are supposed to have been good tank mates for the DSH have ended up eating them and others report that bad tank mates end being OK. But that's not the question.


As for the type of pump, sorry for the confusion. Over sight error no one is perfect. There will only be a sub' Pump a Rio 1700 or 2100 depends.

The gph as listed on the diagram is what the pump is rated for with 0 head. I think that’s what you mean for the flow. The in tank target flow will be about 4x per hour and with a gross volume of 55G the target tank flow will be around 200 gph

As for the fuge again an error in deletion. No fuge.

I’m still kickin’ around the idea of a larger sump. The bio media was canned a couple of days ago. Instead I will be going for a deep sand bed (8 inches or more) but not live sand per se.

You see this diagram is not cast in stone or iron. It’s an idea compiled from some of the things I have learned in general. Some things are good; some things are not so good. That’s the reason I am asking questions. It’s also the reason that there are errors on the diagram as things change, I change the plan. And being human am prone to make mistakes.

Some of my ides come from the general background and knowledge I have in the keeping of fresh water systems for about 20 years. There is no comparison about the only things that are the same is the glass box and source water. After that everything changes.

The other thing that I was hoping for and just cannot seem to get is why something is a bad idea or even why something is a good idea (better than mine). I am not saying that I have a perfect plan there is in all likelihood bad ideas that are incorporated into the plan. Someone just simply saying, “It’s a bad idea IMO.” does not help me understand why it’s a bad idea. Further when I try to explain myself in rebuttal. Some stop posting for feedback. How does that help me?

It might be very well true that there are few that keep DSH in a large system. Mostly because that’s the way it has always been. Anecdotal side thought: Ever see the movie, “It’s a bug’s life”? There a good example of trying to break from tradition. There is nothing wrong with tradition. But, when tradition works against keeping one from trying new things, then the tradition is no longer a tradition it becomes an edict and mandate. Nearly 20 years ago while keeping FW systems, I decided to go with using a soil substrate (topsoil) I was told that is was a bad idea and that I would end up killing my fishes. My primary aim was to raise aquatic plates very heavily. Today there are a multitude of books on just how to do what everyone was telling was a bad idea, keep a natural soil substrate for the growing of aquatic plants in a FW system. I know there is no comparison there, but I get the feeling that after almost five months of research and having put together a PRELIMINARY plan almost everyone thinks, and it has been said out right that my plan is “outrageous”.

Here’s a thought too: In looking for sources for the purchase of the DSH I have found few that sell captive bread and many that sell wild caught. If in the keeping of the variety of fishes, including the DSH, we want to work toward protecting our primary resource WC then there seems to a digression of ideology. For example: I can buy at most retailers of the DSH about 12 WC for under $100. But if I want to buy captive bread DSH I have been quoted $65.00 for 1 with no price break for multiple. That would mean if I wanted to buy 10 I would have to spend $650 plus sales tax.

I said all that to say this. To me, the keeping of the DSH is a hobby pure and simple. Hobbies of almost every nature cost money. Some more some less but they cost. Having said that, and because I want the hobby to expand (like many) I have though about either giving or selling any overstock that may develop if I am even remotely successful, And I wont be selling them for $65.00 each to be certain. That would be an outrage. If we want to protect our resources then we all need to think about providing a way that is less expensive for the entry level hobbyist. Just like many of you, I too would hope that those entering the hobby would do research and ask questions just like me. Further, I would not suggest that the average hobbyist try to copy what I do. I too like many would suggest that they keep the DSH in a 10 gallon system. The only change that I would make in that system is that they have a very large sump of some sort just to increase the volume of water for the sake of stability of the system.

You have asked about what I plan to keep in the tank here is a PRELIMINARY list.

Sea Horses (DSH)
Sand Sifter Crabs
Asteras (Astera sp)
Ceriths (Cerithium strercusmuscarum)
Nassarius snails (Nassarius variegates)
Halocaridina rubra (Tiny Red Shrimp)
Cultured copepods (Cultured in separate containers)
Incidental phytoplankton used as food for the cultures copepods
There may be even incidental rotifers but not an intentional addition

[OneDummHikk]

Originally Posted by wespastor

As for the type of pump, sorry for the confusion. Over sight error no one is perfect. There will only be a sub' Pump a Rio 1700 or 2100 depends.

This is a head loss calculator. You tell it info about your desired setup, and it will tell you how much water (or close) the pump will pump in that configuration. It will help you decide what pump you want to use:

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

Originally Posted by wespastor

The other thing that I was hoping for and just cannot seem to get is why something is a bad idea or even why something is a good idea (better than mine). I am not saying that I have a perfect plan there is in all likelihood bad ideas that are incorporated into the plan. Someone just simply saying, “It’s a bad idea IMO.” does not help me understand why it’s a bad idea. Further when I try to explain myself in rebuttal. Some stop posting for feedback. How does that help me?

It doesn't. It doesn't help the hobby either. But, what have you asked that didn't get answered? I replied to the first post but haven't seen any replies asking for explanations.

Originally Posted by wespastor

There is nothing wrong with tradition. But, when tradition works against keeping one from trying new things, then the tradition is no longer a tradition it becomes an edict and mandate.

Traditions are made to be broken.

If there is anything in my first reply you want explained, have questions about, or just plain disagree with, feel free to point them out. I don't have an issue with discussing anything about tanks. I may say "I don't know" or I will answer it.

[pledosophy]

Originally Posted by wespastor

The HOT Surface skimmer there are a number of reasons I have to do the HOT. Suffice it to say that at least for now that most likely will not change.

Just curious as to why? There are quite a few that keep dwarfs with drilled tanks and strainers. It is safer in the event of a power outage. It is better for the seahorses. There is more control over how to keep the dwarfs out. IMHO everything about strainers is better. Just wondering why your so set on the HOB overflow.

ALL of the video and photos I have which amount to hundreds upon hundreds one of which was a non-stop video covering 8 consecutive days showed that the DSH and it fry were predominately Benthic.

IME the dwarfs swam all over the tank including the top of the tank, and would even raise there cornet out of water. Also if there are pods stuck on the fabric covering the strainer they will go to them. Many fry are born and raise to the surface of the water. JME

As for the type of pump, sorry for the confusion. Over sight error no one is perfect. There will only be a sub' Pump a Rio 1700 or 2100 depends.

I would suggest looking into an Eheim or Mag drive pump as opposed to the Rio. IME the Eheims and Mag pumps are more reliable long term. Every Rio I have run has ended up leaching electricty in to the display and has had restart problems. It seems to be a common problem with them, you can google it to read of it yourself.

I’m still kickin’ around the idea of a larger sump. The bio media was canned a couple of days ago. Instead I will be going for a deep sand bed (8 inches or more) but not live sand per se.

A DSB would be a mistake IMO. You would be better off using chaetomorpha algae and a clip on light.

A DSB is good at removing nitrates if it is populated enough. Unfortunately many of the critters that make a DSB successful will be killed by the panacur you'll use on your dwarf tank. So it will just be sand. Without the critters keeping the sand bed moving it will start releasing things back into the tank.

The macro algae will be better as it also will remove nutrients like the DSB but be much easier to maintain. It will also provide a home for pods to grow. Chaeto is a very safe algae and is easily pruined as well. There is a reason it is used by more then most for there refugiums.



Some of my ides come from the general background and knowledge I have in the keeping of fresh water systems for about 20 years. There is no comparison about the only things that are the same is the glass box and source water. After that everything changes.

The other thing that I was hoping for and just cannot seem to get is why something is a bad idea or even why something is a good idea

Comes with experience you'll get there.

Further when I try to explain myself in rebuttal. Some stop posting for feedback. How does that help me?

Not everyone comes back to every thread they post in to see what people respond with. Sometimes I don't respond to threads where people seem to be argumentative or unwilling to listen to advice (not saying that is happening with you but just explaining why I don't respond in some threads).

I know there is no comparison there, but I get the feeling that after almost five months of research and having put together a PRELIMINARY plan almost everyone thinks, and it has been said out right that my plan is “outrageous”.

What part of your plan are people having issues with?

Here’s a thought too: In looking for sources for the purchase of the DSH I have found few that sell captive bread and many that sell wild caught. If in the keeping of the variety of fishes, including the DSH, we want to work toward protecting our primary resource WC then there seems to a digression of ideology.

Pure capitalism, WC's are cheaper.

For example: I can buy at most retailers of the DSH about 12 WC for under $100. But if I want to buy captive bread DSH I have been quoted $65.00 for 1 with no price break for multiple. That would mean if I wanted to buy 10 I would have to spend $650 plus sales tax.

Albany's Amazing Aquarium in Albany Oregon sell CB dwarfs for $9 a piece.

Sea Horses (DSH)
Sand Sifter Crabs
Asteras (Astera sp)
Ceriths (Cerithium strercusmuscarum)
Nassarius snails (Nassarius variegates)
Halocaridina rubra (Tiny Red Shrimp)
Cultured copepods (Cultured in separate containers)
Incidental phytoplankton used as food for the cultures copepods
There may be even incidental rotifers but not an intentional addition

I would not consider those crabs dwarf safe. They also do not live long IME as they do not fid enough to eat in the sand.

[OneDummHikk]

Originally Posted by pledosophy

I would suggest looking into an Eheim or Mag drive pump as opposed to the Rio. IME the Eheims and Mag pumps are more reliable long term. Every Rio I have run has ended up leaching electricty in to the display and has had restart problems. It seems to be a common problem with them, you can google it to read of it yourself.

Mag pumps are just as bad a choice as Rio's are. Rio's allow stray voltage, Mags notoriously run hot and are very inefficient energy wise. Eheim would be the best choice for it of the three.