Kalk.Reactors or Cal. reactor C02 set up confused

[mini mee]

Hi Everyone
I am a bit confused on the subject of calcium reactors I have been dosing kalk for a while now via a drip and things are going great but I would like less maintenance for the calcium supplement B/C I am out of town from time to time.
First off, I have The Reef Aquarium text by Delbeek and sprung and on page 245 there is a diagram of a calcium reactor with dosing pump,reservoir,float switch.

Then when I go to the various online stores I see calcium reactors with a arrgonite and co2 set up.

I am soooo on what set up would require the least to maintain, the text does not explain the C02 set up at all that I can see so I have no idea about the plumbing, I don't know which one would be the best long term either.

I only want to buy one reactor either the reactor with stir magnet as listed above or Cal. medium and C02 reactor,I would like a reactor set up that will last long term even if I have to spend a little extra coin.
Can someone tell me what I would need for either of these 2 set ups and which one has the least amount of trouble as Dr E. will be watching the Reef while I am out of town from time to time.

Thanks for any help
mini mee

[Doug1]

Ok I'll take a stab at this, maybe Bill can help out if I botch it
Your are talking about 2 different animals here. The Calcium reactor is essentially one or two chambers filled with aragonite medium that has a small pump circulating water through it. At some point in the plumbing there is a fitting that allows CO2 to be introduced into the system. This drops the pH in the system to around 6 causing the aragonite medium to slowly dissolve(it barely dissolves at normal tank pH). This releases the calcium and any other trace elements locked in the aragonite media. Once properly set up and dialed in it can provide large amounts of calcium supplementation automatically. The effluent from the reactor is lower pH than the tank but any excess CO2 will outgas so low pH shouldn't be a problem. I will let others more familiar explain that aspect.
The kalk reactor described in the book is a complicated thing to build and maintan. A much cheaper and easier to build version is caled a Nilsen reactor, and I know at least Bill E has used one succesfully for some time now. It is essentially a pvc or acrylic chamber that can be sealed at top and bottom, with fitting about 1/3 to 1/2 way up allowing you to connect a small maxijet pump to it to provide circulation to do the mixing. The power head is controlled by a cheap digitimer
You have a fitting bringing in water from RO etc and a fiting going to the tank or sump. Also a valved fitting for bleeding the air out of the reactor after filling. In order to get max benefit from kalk it needs to be in a sealed environment so that ambient CO2 doesnt degrade it. On Bills reactor a pump set to match evaporation rate supplies DI water to the reactor pushing kalk on to the sump. I prefer feeding mine to a float valve in the sump, its cheaper but does require flushing from time to time.
So to review, you add x amount of kalk to the chamber and reseal, flood chamber from source and bleed air out. pump on timer mixes kalk and water flows out to the tank, very simple
and cheap to make one No CO2 tanks or expensive regulator, just some scrap pipe and fitting, a small PH and a timer

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I dont advocate holding marine creatures for ransom but......since you asked
Doug, plank owner
http://hellreef.homestead.com/index.html
www.thereeftank.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000001.html

[tdwyatt]

Hey Bud!

A Calcium reactor is aragonite (CaCO3) that is dissolved into the water column using CO2 as a bubble in seawater to form carbonic acid within a sealed chamber. Not only does this make the carbonate salt more soluble, but the carbonic acid and water react with the calcium carbonate to form ionic speces of Ca(OH)2 and CaO (If you want more on the chemistry, email me...) which results in a net increase in both Calcium and alkalinity, in spite of the fact that it may appear initially to drive pH down (due to the reactivity of the carbonate ion in this environment, the net increase is due to the pKa of the salts formed, resulting in an increase in buffering capacity rather than driving down pH).

Kalk reactors (Kalkwasser reactors) use a sealed chamber that contains top-off water (not seawater) and CaO (or Ca(OH)2 or a mixture of both) that is stirred to reach the compound's maximun saturation, allowed to settle (ideally) then pumped into the tank as top off water. The scheme should be: the mixture is agitated, either with a magnetic stirrer, or by using a powerhead to agitate the mix in the bottom of a column. The mix is allowed to settle for approximately 20 to 30 minutes, then a top-off cycle ensues where the supernatant liquid is pumped into the sump of your system. The rate of delivery is based on the evaporation of your system, to increase Ca delivery to the max, max out your evaporation.

In the long run, I would want the Kalkreactor, simply because I do not want to keep a potential rocket/bomb in my house (the CO2 cylinder) and have to diddle with the bubble rates when I can have a maintainence-free system (except for adding more Kalk powder every 2 weeks) that pretty much has the same impact on the Ca levels and alk for the tank. In addition, it reduces the time I have to spend setting up my top-off system, as it does the same thing. If you use a pinpoint pH meter or equivalent, watch for morning net decreases in pH: When you see a drop of 0.1 or 0.2 units of pH every morning, then you know it is time to add more kalk to the reactor container.

Both systems are available as DIY projects (last I checked, Bill-e's homepage had a Nilsen-modified Kalk reactor page), but the Kalk reactor is much easier and less expensive to both make and maintain. For my time and money and the health of my systems, I would recommend a Kalk reactor, but then again, that is just my $0.02 worth...

hehehehehheheheh....


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Tom <"{{{{>(
(TDWyatt)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -Plato

[mini mee]

Hey Guys
Thanks for the info between the 2 set ups Doug you made it easy to understand the diff. and Tom thanks for the tip on the DIY link to Bill E home page for building the Nilsen Reactor the layout seems straight forward.

off to get pipe and such...
mini

[bill-e]

mini mee,

The Nilsen reactor isnt really that inexpensive because you also have to buy a dosing pump. Those pumps can run anywhere from $75 on EBay to $240 for a litermeter. But, for that price what you can do with the Nilsen reactor is also top off all your evaporation water. Below is a quick and dirty pic I just created to illustrate the setup.

In my setup, all the stuff contained inside the grey box is in my laundry room closet. The 35 gallon trash can is fed by two Tap Water Purifiers. The sump is over 50 feet away. the pump I use is a ReefFiller, about $170 and noisy so it needs to be in a closet. The beauty of the ReefFiller is that it can push up to 200 ft head pressure...more than most people need.
Also notice that the clean DI water is pushed through the reactor, so the pump never sees kalk water.


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Bill Esposito
bespo@cereal.mv.com
JAqua for the AquaController 2
http://cereal.mv.com/jaqua.html
My Reef Page
http://cereal.mv.com/reef
The box said "Use Win 95 or better", I chose better so I run OS/2!

[mini mee]

That is excellent Bill the drawing helps a lot one quick que. though if I put a float switch in my sump and supply my Reactor with fresh water do I still need a dosing pump or would it still work ok if I just had a supply of constant fresh water on tap to the Reactor but would only add to the sump if the float switch called for make up kalk water?
In other words looking at the drawing put a float switch at the sump,take away the dosing pump, would the siphon created by the float switch calling for make up water be strong enough to supply water to the Reactor?

Thanks for all the help
mini

[bill-e]

The problem with the float switch is that they allow too much water in at one time. With Kalkwasser, which will have a pH of over 12 out of the reactor, you really need to drip it in.

I used to run mine 24/7 but my pH was getting too high duing the day (although my creatures never showed any stress from it) So now I only dose/top off during the off-light hours and my pH stays very stable.

I suppose you could try a powerhead connected to a "waste gate" like setup, using the amount of water released back into the resevoir to control the flow through the reactor. I never tried it but it may work.

Using the float valve will probably allow about a quart or more of water to be added to the sump each time...a bad thing with a pH of 12.

------------------
Bill Esposito
bespo@cereal.mv.com
JAqua for the AquaController 2
http://cereal.mv.com/jaqua.html
My Reef Page
http://cereal.mv.com/reef
The box said "Use Win 95 or better", I chose better so I run OS/2!

[Doug1]

Sorry Bill, gotta disagree on the float valve dumping up to a qt of water at one time. I have used a float valve for over 2 years now and I have never had that happen. I will grant that it is a modified piece of medical equipment fed via airline tubing, not 1/4 or bigger like some of the commercially available float valves. Another factor in how much is administered is the size of the compartment that the float valve is in. My return section of the sump is 14x14 and about 8 inches deep, about 6-7 gallons so the float cycles on and off quickly. It might be a problem if there were no dividers in the sump so that level drops resulted in longer valve open periods. The other caveat is you need to watch for buildup on the float valve. I can flush mine with vinegar every couple months, but if administered through a sealed container like the Nilsen reactor I would hope there would be even less deposits involved. MM as you can see there are several ways to accomplish the goal. Bills is a more expensive method but has worked well for him for quite a while, which is critical as he is away from his tank frequently for long periods of time and it makes it easier for his wife to take care of

------------------
I dont advocate holding marine creatures for ransom but......since you asked
Doug, plank owner
http://hellreef.homestead.com/index.html
www.thereeftank.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000001.html

[mini mee]

Bill, I should have been more clear I drip my Kalk mix 24/7 via a float valve I should have put that info at the beginning of the thread oops
I think the DIY page on the reactor rocks, the text and layout really breaks it down and the material list to, consider it bookmarked,thanks
My tank is light on evap.and my batch is not really strong so my ph is around 8.3-8.4 during the day and I have coraline growth on the glass so it's been ok so far, knock on wood.

Well I am going to give it a try with the float valve Doug and the Nilsen reactor thanks to Bill's web page layout and see how it goes, if I need the dosing pump later I will snag one off Ebay

cheers
mini

[bill-e]

Doug and mini mee,

I dont doubt that there are float valves out there suitable for this, it's just I've never found any. Most of the ones offered in the aquarium trade are +/- a half inch or so.

It would be interesting to hang a pH meter on the tank and see how it reacts to the kalk, real time, when it dumps.

As far as your earlier question about the siphon, yes, that will be fine.

mini mee, what kind of float valve are you using?



------------------
Bill Esposito
bespo@cereal.mv.com
JAqua for the AquaController 2
http://cereal.mv.com/jaqua.html
My Reef Page
http://cereal.mv.com/reef
The box said "Use Win 95 or better", I chose better so I run OS/2!

[mini mee]

Hi Bill
The float that I am using is a Replacement float for a Dehumidifier I think, I bought it along time ago it's all black and plastic.
I picked it up at a hardware store the input to the float is 1/4" but on the float there is a dial by turning the dial from 0-9 you adjust the amount of kalk and height of the float off the sumps water, I think it was a couple of bucks.
I've used the float since I started dosing Kalk.When I made my first batch of Kalk I made it weak, 1/2 the recommended amount to see the effects on my PH, when I was satisfied that I was getting good coraline growth and my ph was dialed in, I new my batch was right

When I mix my kalk I have a set amount of kalk added to match the evap. rate I would not recommend this method to anyone unfamiliar with the limits of this float and characteristics of kalk.

Another important point to mention is I always top off with fresh water before I attach the float to the kalk container so I don't dump a lot of kalk into the sump when the sump is low.

I know not a real scientific method but like I say it's spreading onto the glass and live rock, in fact I am having trouble looking through the front and sides of the tank.

Bill if ya have an extra PH meter laying around I have a home for it I would sure like to know with the accuracy of a meter exactly what my PH fluctuations are? the kits here are Seatest probably out by a bit but it's all I have until my next road trip in March to Florida yeeeeha if you don't want to part with the PH meter you have can you recommend one I could pick up while I'm in Florida?

mini




[This message has been edited by mini mee (edited 02-19-2001).]

[bill-e]

The best inexpensive pH meter to get is the Pinpoint, it sells for under 100 bucks everywhere. I sold one for like 70 bucks a while back...you missed it

It would be interesting to see how the pH reacts say 5 minutes after the float valve lets in the kalk.

------------------
Bill Esposito
bespo@cereal.mv.com
JAqua for the AquaController 2
http://cereal.mv.com/jaqua.html
My Reef Page
http://cereal.mv.com/reef
The box said "Use Win 95 or better", I chose better so I run OS/2!

[mini mee]

I should also mention that the float is a 1/4" OD.so I put a smaller line inside the 1/4" OD hose.
I watched the drip rate it is about a drip every second or 2 when the float calls for make up water.
To bad I missed the 70.00 dollar one, I'll have a look for pinpoint PH meters on my trip to Florida, I really should get one then I would know for sure what my PH is and I'm sure it would come in handy when I go to use my reactor to.

Thanks for all the help, I'll keep ya posted after I get the PH meter
mini