plumbing and draining and pumps, oh my!

thefatman · 06-11-2003, 09:35 AM

ok quick couple of questions before i take my tanks to be drilled today.

i read binylee's formula for drain sizes, and i'm even more confused

what size should my drain from the display tank be? there will only be ONE drain line.

what size should the drain line from my fuge be. again, only ONE drain line here as well.

it looks as though i may use a mag9.5 for my return pump. a mag 7 for my skimmer pump. and a mag 5 for my cls pump.

are mags, really as noisy as some people say they are? they will all be submersed in water. will this help?

my main concern is the mag5 for my cls. it will be sumbmersed in my display tank, inside the overflow. so if it's noisy, the noise wont be contained by the stand, as those in the sump will be.

i dont wanna go with rio's. and i dont wanna shell out the cash at the moment for eheim or iwaki. so it looks as though mag may win the fight.

my other option is CAP pumps. that's what i use now, and i've been happy with it. it has a fairly small footprint, and is nice and quiet. but not sure how long they last, or how well they are comapred to mag's.

so, in closing, mag pumps, or cap pumps?
what size drain line from display to sump?
what size drain line from fuge to sump?

thanks!

Geoff · 06-11-2003, 09:46 AM

mags are kinda noisy. i have a 7 that is ok just a light vibrating hum. i have a 12 witch is ubnoxious, lots of chatter sounds. i also have a 250 with is between the two.

what i suggest is getting some of the new quiet one pumps. i know they are brand spanking new, but about the same price as the mags, but run at 45db!!!! claimed. they also come in various sized. i know i will be trying a couple for my CLS.

G~

3Twenty5 · 06-11-2003, 09:53 AM

As for drain size you can use the calculator on reef central, I just went with a 1 1/2" drain becuase I wanted more then 800gph for flow, and remeber you can always reduce the drain with a bulhead..but you cannot make it bigger...I also went with a Mag12 for my CLS and a Mag 12 for my open, after all my research I have found it to be teh best bang for the buck, the quiet ones and notorius for breaking, I almost went with a Velocity but could not afford the 2-3 degree temp rise...I have friends with Mags and if you use the pad supplied with the pump more then likely you will have a quiet pump

Doug1 · 06-11-2003, 09:56 AM

Jay I have 2 one inch bulkhead fittings on my 75g. Right now one is shut off and the Mag 5 is returning water from sump to display, drawing only thru one side. In the past when I used the MAg 18 as a return both the one inchers handled the flow rate. I didnt like the noise of all that water running thru the sump. Noise and salt creep where issues I didn't like. Thats why I switched to the lower rated M5 and am plannining on putting the M18 on the other bulkhead to feed the closed loop and run the return over the top thru a directional manifoldl. FWIW I am not sure its technically a closed loop system if the pump is inside the tank, but no matter.
So I guess what I am saying is get the BH fittings in hand, I would have one drilled for the Durso/Stockman overflow and one for a real closed loop(pump outside the tank) but thats me. as far as the fuge, might as well make it 1" as well, its the flow rate in that sets the flow rate out, at least till you max the pipes capicity to carry water, HTH

NewReefer · 06-11-2003, 10:18 AM

The OceanRunners I use are super quiet, German made well built.
I use the OR3500 which is 900gph and the OR2500 which is 700gph for the skimmer. You can't hear them and my tank is in the living room, you hear the little water flow more. 1" bulkheads are ok for that size, but you could go bigger like stated above with no problems. Also, Pceanrunners have no screws exposed to cause problems later, remember stainless will rush in sw. These pumps are completely expoxy sealed, twice! Easy to clean also.

thefatman · 06-11-2003, 10:21 AM

hmm i wonder why its not considered a cls if the pump is outside the tank? its still doing the same thing. i was going to have an intake pipe going through the overflow wall, and then the outgoing line would go through the other overflow wall, and out to the cls plumbing around the tank.

putting the pump outside the tank, only adds more head. which is really the only reason i was goign to put the pump inside. i figured, less head, more flow. i dont want a pump up top in the back of the stand. so if i go external, it'll have to be down in the bottom of the stand. it's not really a huge issue, i jsut figured it means i have ot use a larger pump. and drill more holes in the back of the tank. which is something i really didnt want to do.

i dont mind two holes, one for drain, one for cls. then i could jsut run the cls back in over the top, the way i wanted to in the first place, then i could havea ball valve on each line, as part of the manifold. i've got 5" 6" behind the tank for plumbing if need be.

i also really wanted to avoid having a bunch of pipes coming down the backwall of my tank. but if it' sa better way to do it, i guess i will. hopefully it can all be covered with rock.

i dont think there is any paint that is safe to use inside the tank? my back wall is black, it'd be nice if i coould paint the pipes black, then they would blend, and i wouldnt mind so much. is there "reef safe" paint?

or perhaps i could locate some clear pvc, or acrylic tubing!

also doug, yo usaid yo uare returning with a mag 5? is that enough. i thought i was supposed ot return at 10x tank volume? or is that compensated with the cls?

the quiet one pumps at PA are 117 bucks! much more than the mags. and htey are external only. although, it's 1140gph, could i use a bigger pump like that for return AND skimmer? if i could use the same pump, then getting a bigger more expensive pump, soulc atually cost less than two smaller pumps. the ni only need one more for my cls. and i have to say, it owuld be nice to have only two pumps to plug in, instead of three

thefatman · 06-11-2003, 10:23 AM

thanks scott. i've never heard of those before.

see, locally the ONLY pumps available are rio's.

so i'm gonna have to buy online, or buy from another reefer. i'd prefer to either support a trt member, or a trt sponsor. but the only sponsor i know of that carries pumps, is premium aquatics.

Geoff · 06-11-2003, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by thefatman
\the quiet one pumps at PA are 117 bucks! much more than the mags. and htey are external only. although, it's 1140gph, could i use a bigger pump like that for return AND skimmer? if i could use the same pump, then getting a bigger more expensive pump, soulc atually cost less than two smaller pumps. the ni only need one more for my cls. and i have to say, it owuld be nice to have only two pumps to plug in, instead of three

PA has not updated their site about the new quiet one pumps. they were just announced last week, i think. their website is down www.rainbow-lifegard.com. i will try and find a link from one of our sponsers.

G~

Doug1 · 06-11-2003, 10:30 AM

Yes the flow rate is jacked up by the closed loop. IMO any more flow thru sump than skimmer will process is wasted . But again that is just me.
Closed vers Open loop. Typical drain from overflow device to sump, then pumped back by another pump is an open loop, for obvious reasons.
The closed loop has intake in tank and pulls water out thru pump and back into tank. If this system is shut off the water stays where its at, no siphoning, ect, because the loop is closed. So technically what you wanted to do with inside is a CLS but this is what is usually refered to by CLS. If the pump is behind the tank at near same level head height is a non issue, but dont forget unions and ball valves both sides to allow the pump out for maint, or replacement

NewReefer · 06-11-2003, 10:31 AM

Jay you can check out this site, they will fine a store near you or a place to order them. I've called the main outlet Aqua Medic and you wouldn't believe the help they gave me, heck they practily replaced my Turbofloater 1000 skimmer LOL!

http://www.aqua-medic.de/index0.html

thefatman · 06-11-2003, 10:46 AM

i agree doug. i stated that to the lfs when i first setup the first tank. i wish there was a way to force ALL the drain water to go through the skimmer. otherwise, it's just draining down, and evaporating off, for nothing. and all the water isnt even getting cleaned.

well, it's niceto know i can with smaller flow pump for the return then, and i'll jsut go higher flow with the cls, i was actually going to do it the other way around, because i thought my return had to be 10x.

thanks for hte help scott and geoff!

grazhopr · 06-11-2003, 10:49 AM

Jay,

I have my Mag 12 as return pump and a Mag 7 with the skimmer running the system with tap water at this moment.
The only way I notice them is when the house is completely quiet.
They do produce a humming sound. If it doesn't get any worse, I think it's acceptable. I sleep very close to where the tank is, with no problems so far. The Mag 12 comes with a foam pad, indeed. But I think it will only protect your sump or container where the pump sits. My sump bottom glass cracked a couple of days ago. I think it might have been chipped or something by mishandling it and pump vibration extended the flaw. Now it has a double bottom glass and cork pad underneath. And the pumps are padded too. I'm crossing my fingers I won't have the same problem again.

My 2 cents

grazhopr · 06-11-2003, 10:54 AM

Oh, I forgot.
These pump will warm up the water a lil bit.
My Mag 12 alone raises the temperature ~ 2 F
The Mag 7 add ~ 2 F.

My tank is 120 gal.

No pumps on: temp is ~78 F
With lights on, only it goes up to 80 F

With both pumps on, it surprisingly raises temp to 83-84 F, during the hottest days.

I was shocked to learn that the pumps put more heat in the water than my MH bulbs (2 - 175 watt).

Hope this helps a lil more!

thefatman · 06-11-2003, 11:00 AM

cool then i wont need a heater

my water right now with my cap pump insump, and my rio skimmer pump, wont even get close to 75 without my heaters on.

and with the heaters on, i keep the tank at 80. when the lights have been oon for several hours, the tank is still at 81-82. but my lights are also only 2 vho and 2 noflo. over a 55g

i hear everyone always talking about a need for chillers. heck i've got a need for heaters

additional help from a pump will be nice!

NewReefer · 06-11-2003, 11:01 AM

Yea Jay crank up your cls and you will be ok. I had a water temperature drop when I added my Sqwid to the return, the reason because the flow rate droped, thus allowed fo rmore surface to air transfer in the main tank, thus cooling the water 2 degrees more! I have a TUNZE Stream controller system coming in tomorrow, it has 1800gph flow rate. I think this should keep the water movement going inside the main tank. I'll keep the results posted, if and how well this system works compared to a cls. I do believe a cls will churn up more flow rate but I haven't the room to use this system in my set-up, so I reasearched and opted for this TUNZE, hoping it works better than expected.