When to use filters?

[bb0029]

This is something that totally confuses me. I understand that the sand and the live rock are filtering you water. Now that I am working on my 90 gallon I was wondering if I should invest in some kind of canister filter or something like that, or just stick to live rock and sand. Without a filter I am a little scared because of my lack of understanding.

I plan on filling the tank with live rock and sand with a few "easy" corals that I have as well as a couple of fish. I guess I am looking for an explanation of why I would not need some sort of external filter.

Also if I decided to skip the live rock and go with a fish only tank then I am assuming that I would be fine with a canister or some hang on the back filtration.

Thanks for looking and any references you could refer me to would be great as well. I am in the planning phase now and would like to look at all my options.

[Doug1]

You are right, the sand and live rock will support the beneficial bacteria that convert toxic waste products into less toxic compounds.
Note that in the beginning it takes a while to establish the population needed to cope with the amount of waste present. They reproduce at a fairly set rate, so do not fall for the instant cycle claims of some products. If you get Live Rock thats fairly cured you should be good to go, tho keep in mind that the rock can shed dying materiel for a while and needs to be looked after.
Any organics in the tank, whether from food fish waste, coral slime etc will need to be removed in order to avoid build up of nitrates and phosphates and all the algae issues later.
Are you planning on having a sump? Rather than spending money on a canister filter, I suggest getting an adequate protien skimmer, this is going to be running 24/7 and actually removes organics from the water rather than trapping them in filter media and breaking down.
Canister filters can be useful for taking out gross particulate after you squirt the live rock with a baster or small power head.

[bb0029]

I am still unsure about a sump. I have what I believe to be a 30 gallon tank that I could convert but I am honestly scared of all that plumbing. I just don't want this project to get all out of control. I really have no desire at the current time to keep up with a extremely complex system. Like I said in my OP I will have just a few fish and a few mushrooms, nothing complex. Maybe down the road I will get into more complicated things but right now I would like to keep it fairly simple as I learn. Right now I am more interested in getting my feet wet rather then jumping right in.

The sump would be ok at a later time but I was hoping to start up with a skimmer that I could hang on the back as well as having just sand and live rock with a couple of power heads and enough lighting to keep my mushrooms, rhicordia and tree healthy and happy.

As far as fish the false perculia will stay and maybe a few more smaller species that will form a community of "friendly" fish. Clean up crew as well.

[Loverotties]

You can do it that way and either plug the tank where it's drilled or add a overflow box later but it will take more fulling around with the surface from not getting build up.

[bb0029]

/necro thread

I am still in the planning phase of my 90 gallon build and now I am deciding on how much rock to get. I have been told that 45lbs would be more then enough if I chose to go with some kind of external filter.

I was also told that if I go with just the LR, I will need to get around 100lbs or so.

I still don't plan on having anything other then my 2 false perc and my clown goby. I rather have 3 happy little fish then 5 big mean ones lol. I know the percs will get bigger as well as the goby too.

Thank

[Phishnoob]

I am going to use a bag of floss for a day or two at the return outlet in the sump in my new tank.

For my 28g I have the little cheap HOB filter that came with the tank and run the filter for 24 hours after a big tank cleaning.

After a day or two of either then throw the floss out and wash the bag in the laundry (don't let your wife catch you throwing it in there with the other white delicates).

[cutietwo]

Originally Posted by bb0029

/necro thread

I am still in the planning phase of my 90 gallon build and now I am deciding on how much rock to get. I have been told that 45lbs would be more then enough if I chose to go with some kind of external filter.

I was also told that if I go with just the LR, I will need to get around 100lbs or so.


Thank

Yes but if you have a 90 and only a few lbs of rock the tank will look very empty. Having more rock will make the tank look better (in my opinion). Yes your story sounds familiar.... In the beginning all I wanted was fish only, and now a year and a half down the road I have the beginnings of a reef. Very addicting hobby

[waltercat]

If you want to go with a 90G reef tank then it would be good to put alot of rock in there at the beginning. That way you don't have to deal with adding alot of rock down the line as that can throw your tank out of whack even if the rock is cured.

As for filters eventually you'll want to get some sort of filtration unless you plan on doing some massive water changes often, which I don't recommend.

People have success with lots of filtration techniques. These are a few that I know to work well:

Hang on the Back Skimmer
Sump with a skimmer in it
Refugiums
Canister Filters (if taken care of properly)

Since you are a beginner I would suggest getting a HOB skimmer to start. This will pretty much be the cheapest, most effective and easiest solution for you. But remember that you can't rely on filtration alone. Good water flow, light, and proper chemistry levels will help avoid problems.

I would suggest getting a vortech or 2 for your 90G, that will help kick up any dead spots. Also I would suggest dosing 2 part (Alk and CA) and Magnesium. If you want to throw some macro algae in your tank that won't hurt either.

But in the end you'll be safe with a HOB skimmer.

Stay away from Wet Dry Filters.

I use a canister and a HOB filter but I've been doing this for a long time and I know how to use a canister properly for a reef tank. I would not suggest it to someone just starting out.

[Phishnoob]

Oh forgot to mention in my post that the HOB filter with a bag of floss was only for occasional use.

The protein skimmer runs all the time, and there are 10% weekly water changes.

We did only 1 lb per gallon and I liked the look better than a huge wall of rock.

[bb0029]

Sweet, I went to the LFS store again today and he said he could hook me up real good with all the cured base rock I needed. I think I will just go ahead and go with a ton of rock.

I had a prism HOB skimmer before and I hated it. It was the regular version. Some people say the pro is better but I am scared either way. I would honestly like to stay away from a sump. I want to try to keep it pretty simple but still effective if that is possible. I have like 5 Fluvals from back in the day when I was breeding oscars. Those fish are so messy lol.

I am still planning but thanks for the info.

[waltercat]

I have been happy with the remora pro HOB filter. And you can have a nice tank without a sump so don't worry about that.

[motorslave]

Be careful of the lbs per gallon rock theory. Too much rock is not a good thing. It will inhibit flow in the tank, create dead spots and these dead spots will collect detritus and eventually can become issues. Don't be concerned too much with how many lbs. Focus more on the rock itself. The more porous the rock the better. Porous rock has more surface area, the more surface area he more beneficial bacteria. Stack you rock so that there is as much open space between pieces as possible. This will allow water to flow freely and help in keeping things clean and detritus suspended so it can be skimmed/filtered out of the column. The water being able to move around in the rock is very important to long term health of the rock and a big factor in helping to avoid algae issues. No flow will allow al kinds of things to settle in the rock eventually saturating it and then you have a mess and frustration that can be too much sometimes. Open rock work, porous rock and good flow. I actually ran my 150 with about 80 or 90 lbs for a long time with no issues of water quality. Just have a good skimmer and your set. I currently have somewhere around 130 or so lbs of Tonga and Fiji ( mostly Tonga) with 240 gallons of water total volume. Big skimmer.

[bb0029]

Originally Posted by motorslave

Be careful of the lbs per gallon rock theory. Too much rock is not a good thing. It will inhibit flow in the tank, create dead spots and these dead spots will collect detritus and eventually can become issues. Don't be concerned too much with how many lbs. Focus more on the rock itself. The more porous the rock the better. Porous rock has more surface area, the more surface area he more beneficial bacteria. Stack you rock so that there is as much open space between pieces as possible. This wil allow water to flow freely and help in keeping things clean and detritus suspended so it can be skimmed/filtered out of the solumn. The water being able to move around in the rock is very iomportant to long term health of the rock and a big factor in helping to avoid algae issues. No flow will alllow al kinds of things to settle in the rock eventually saturating it and then you have a mess and frustrtaion tht can be too much sometimes. Open rock work, porous rock and good flow. I actually ran my 150 with about 80 or 90 lbs for a long time with no issues of water quality. Just have a good skimmer and your set. I currently hav omewhere around 130 or so lbs of Tonga and Fiji ( mostly Tonga) with 240 gallons of water total volume. Big skimmer.

That's ironic cause today I was talking to another guy and he told me basically the same thing about the rock. He said if you get good quality rock 45lbs would be more then enough. I did not think about the water flow either.

Thanks all for all your input.

[trishy711]

Hi, It all depends on how you set your tank up. If you have enough flow, a good skimmer and do regular maintenance and water changes you can get a lot of rock. Believe me 45lbs of rock is going to make your tank look like there's barely any rock in it. I have a 110 gallon tank with about 150lbs of live rock and i run four Koralia 4's for circulation + my 500GPH return line and an Octopus NW-200 Protein skimmer. I have no algae issues and i just started to blow my rocks off after about 8 months of not doing it. I recently converted my Fish only tank to a Reef about 9 months ago and it's going good so far. When i had my Fish only tank i had 2 big canister filters and a Red Sea Prism Pro HOB Skimmer on it and i had a major hair algae probelm that spread and covered everything in my tank in like 3 months and it took me 6 months to get rid of it because of those canister filters. I finally got rid of the canisters and the HOB skimmer and bought a Lifereef overflow and got a sump and an Octopus NW-200 skimmer and it literally fixed the hair algae, nitrate and all of my other problems.

So with all that being said i would recommend not getting any kind of canister filtration on your tank either way, "Reef" or "Fish Only". If possible i would get a sump with a good skimmer that's actually going to produce some real skimmate. The sump is seriously not complicated at all, I'm fairly new to this hobby as well, it's just an overflow box drainging water into a small fish tank with your protein skimmer in it and then a pump that simply pumps water right back into your tank after being skimmed. My HOB Skimmer was the "Best" for a HOB Skimmer and it doesn't even compare to my new skimmer at all.

I Hope this Helps

[bb0029]

Well I do have another 55g tank and I believe the other one is a 35 gallon tank that I could make into a sump. I will have to read up on how to actually make one. I have seen a ton of the pre-made ones but if I could do it myself and save some money I will do that.

As far as the rock goes I enjoy more open style tanks myself. Tall and short arches and maybe a big single rock in between or something like that.

I was doing some more reading on the skimmers and they seem to be what makes or breaks a system so that is something I will have to look into as well. I don't have any clue about what size return pump and all that stuff I will need or for that matter what kind of pump at all would be overkill or not.