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Old 04-21-2006, 09:03 PM   #1
bjbauer
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Question

what's the truth here?


Okay, I'm asking another question as I rebuild my tank. I am setting up an Ecosystem filtered tank. I am using some old live rock I have cleaned and boiled and a minimal amount of crushed coral for esthetics on the bottom. I was told that the rock and the crushed coral would leach phosphate. Is this B.S.? I never had a problem with phosphate in the old setup that the rock came from. As far as the crushed coral goes, I don't know but I've never heard that one before. I am making water right now and plan on filling the tank this weekend so I want to get the rock and/or coral out if this is true.
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:17 PM   #2
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Over time both the substrate and live rock can become saturated with phoshate and cause trouble in the future if detrius is allowed to build up
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Old 04-21-2006, 09:57 PM   #3
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like Kelli has mentioned if detritus is allowed to build up the sand bed than it can build up. if allowed to build up in the sand bed it can be wicked up by the LR.

CC is notorious for being able to absorb phophates because it is coarse. detritus can fall in between the grains and decompose. this is why it is important to deep clean a CC sand bed. detritus tends to sit on top of fine grained SB so it is easier to siphon up. as long as you keep on top of the siphoning of the detritus on a fine grained SB you should be able to keep the phosphate obsorbtion to a minimum.

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Old 04-21-2006, 10:39 PM   #4
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When you say "Ecosystem Filtered" are you refering to one of Ling Sy's setups with the "Miracle Mud" , etc?
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:38 PM   #5
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yes. It is a so called mud system. The question is actually does the rock and/or the crushed coral actually leach phosphate. Forget for the moment if detritus that can build up can release it. The amount of crushed coral is like 1/4 to 3/8 inch. If the rock or coral is leaching phosphate a test should indicate it. If it is highly likely however, I would just as soon remove it now rather than later. I will let the tank cycle for 3 weeks before stocking.
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Old 04-22-2006, 06:38 AM   #6
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And it easyier to get rid of now also!
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Old 04-22-2006, 08:53 AM   #7
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So the rock actually absorbs phosphate? That implies it should be changed every so often.
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Old 04-22-2006, 11:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjbauer
...does the rock and/or the crushed coral actually leach phosphate? Forget for the moment if detritus that can build up can release it. The amount of crushed coral is like 1/4 to 3/8 inch. If the rock or coral is leaching phosphate a test should indicate it. If it is highly likely however, I would just as soon remove it now rather than later...
Calcium-based substrates, including rock and the aragonite or calcite sands, adsorb the phosphate molecule to their surface. Bacteria in the substrate as biofilms, as well as nuisance and macro-algae can store the phosphates in varying degrees, and will all rapidly and fiercely compete for these relatively scare resources in nature (as well as in closed systems, but phosphate in closed systems is not a scare resource). The nature of coarse crushed coral substrates is such that they easily trap detritus, left over food items, and miscellaneous organic substances that all rapidly decompose to their constituent compounds. It is this decomposition and release of these substances that is the bane of the crushed coral substrate.

Such coral-sourced substrates from old systems do not have much ability to release these phosphates at ASW aquarium normal pH (8.0-8.4), but in the sandbeds where bacterial resirations can drop the pH due to the production of organic acids and CO2 release, de-adsorption can easly occur for phosphates and phosphate-containing organic substances (organophosphates), and bacterial production of phosphatases (phosphate releasing enzymes) CAN release many complexed organophosphates that would otherwise not be available to fuel nuisance algal blooms.

The presence of high levels of phosphate will not be detectable in hobbyist's-level test kits, due to the organic complex formation as well as potential formation of other undetectable forms of phosphate ion species. Test kits for the hobby detect only free phosphate ions/molecules, and in a biologically active system (all of our tanks), phosphate does not stay in this form for more than a very short time. Detection of phosphates is quite difficult for this reason, and testing will not reflect a true measure of what the actual amount of phosphate is in the water.

Phosphatase enzymes acting on organic compounds and new releases of phosphates from substrate due to pH shifts make biologically available forms of this nutrient for absorption by algae. They can quickly assimilate it from the water and trigger algal blooms. This is the issue with reusing old substrates, and although it may seem wasteful and expensive to toss the old substrates, replacing them before there are algae problems is MUCH easier than dealing with nuisance algal blooms. Rock can be "cooked" to purge them of excessive phsphate content. This is not boiling the live rock, which kills our desirable beneficial bacteria, but a biologically-driven purge of the rock of its excess phosphate content by allowing the bacteira in the rock to grow without light (and competition by algae). The bacterial colonial growths push the bacterial cell mass containing these phosphates out of the rock as detritus, which is then either skimmed from the water via protein fractionation or siphoned as surface detrital mulm from the surfaces of the rock and the bottom of the purge container. Do a search on the topic in the archives for more detail. The rock can in this manner be treated to release its excess phosphate content, unfortunately, the sand cannot be treated in this manner.

HTH explain the issue.
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Old 04-22-2006, 09:29 PM   #9
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gravity keeps getting in the way when trying to cook sand.

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