Water Movement from under the Sands

[mini mee]

I am trying to get some ideas for a new reef tanks water movement layout

I was wondering what people thought of loc-line pipe also if anyone has ever buried it in the sand, for additional water movement via a sump pump?

also what da ya think

If 2 maxi jet pumps were used out side the tank in the sump then say pvc piped to the tank, run through sealed bulk head holes in the bottom of the tank then loc-line pipe under sand, hook the pumps up to a wavemaker and sit back all comfy without seeing the power heads inside you're tank hanging there
Sure the power heads get coraline on them mine are but you still see em
That's why this pic is nice no equipment
hanging in view.
http://www.cpfarm.com/equip/jpg/aa-2.jpg


what da ya think of the idea of

Water Movement from under the Sands?

Sounds a little like a movie tittle

But really
mini mee

[Pik]

Well, the idea of running underneath the sand is what I'm thinking of doing w/ the new tank. It's not finalized yet though.

As for your idea about drilling a bulkhead on the bottom of the tank, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't want to risk having a bulkhead that could possibly leak and you would have no way of stopping the water.

[Rick O]

Ok, I'm guessing you're trying to get water circulation to the hard to reach areas of your tank. Right?

Here's an idea I stole from another reefer (thanks Shirly M). I have a 1/2" PVC spraybar that runs the full length of my tank that sits on the bottom at the back of the tank. It has small holes drilled in it every three inches. I have it connected to a Maxi-Jet 1200 via a tube that runs from the spraybar up one of the overflows. Although I have the ph mounted where you could see it I figured I would have to put it high in case I ever needed to replace it.

This setup keeps all detritus pushed out from under the LR.

Rick

[mini mee]

Pik thats funny you were thinking the same thing, I have been looking at other reef tank set ups to get some ideas for my new reef tank, I have thought of a bar behind the reef to Rick but I do not want to see the power head or have to dig the power head out from behind the rocks to clean it so I thought why not bury the loc-line pipe in the sand.
Here are some pics from a terrific web site from a moderator on a Hong Kong bb his name is paul and I like the plumbing he has tried
take a look.

Thanks paul in advance
here it is.

http://reefclub.org/paulnew/

What da ya think of the plumbing gang?

mini mee

[Doug1]

So you want to run one of the return lines down to the bottom of the tank and split it using the Line Loc fittings? If you plan on the up and over the back approach, first you must have a siphon break near the water line
other wise a pump shut off condition will siphon down to the level of the lineloc fittings on the bottom.In other words with out a siphon break hole it will drain the tank into the sump. Not Good. Another thing to consider is the addition length of piping, T's and bends will reult in more flow loss, reducing the output from the pump.
If you are even remotely considering having the return lines come up thru the bottom and out the line locs DONT DO IT!!!!! Every line that comes up from underneath will have to have a checkvalve to keep the water from draining back out!!!!!!!!!!!!!. These are expensive and not foolproof and when they are working right will increase the back pressure on your return pump substantially. Not a good idea all in all

------------------
I dont advocate holding marine creatures for ransom but......since you asked
Doug, plank owner
http://hellreef.homestead.com/index.html
www.thereeftank.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000001.html

[mini mee]

Hi Doug
The way it seems Paul did it is he drilled 3 holes in the tank 1-main overflow 1-buck up overflow 1-water supply from the sump all the lines as in the pics go through the over flow space behind the weir.
How he got around the draining the hole tank concern is he "T"ed the supply and ran a second spray nozzel off the supply line so that, one supply goes under the sand and the other is at the top of the tank so if the power goes out, when the water reaches the top supply output nozzel the siphon breaks b/c the "T" is also near the top of the plumbing layout.You can see a little bit of what I mean if you look at the batch of tank pics,the one second in on the right

If you make the pump bigger the line loss output could be keept to a minimal maybe as in paul's case

what da ya think gang
mini mee

[This message has been edited by mini mee (edited 02-11-2001).]

[mini mee]

Rick what do you think?

pik maybe this could help with you're plumbing what do you think?

Doug maybe you can tell me how big a power head would have to be if you were to try this method, I really think it could work using power heads but I would appreciate an opinion on this, based on experience with power heads and pumps and such

Look fellas or anyone reading this, the thread is water movement, I am not asking for a critique of the web site and all that it contains,nor do I want one, we all know what that can lead to.

But People have web pages to post new ideas on how they approch the hobby it's called the www a sharing of info for the benefit of the hobby, members here have them it's no secret or should it be if the intent of the webmaster is to relay info to the masses
I mean that is why they have web pages.

If the idea of under the sand plumbing works with the main pump in the sump.

Do you think you could use power heads or a pair of reasonably sized, 2 pumps on a
wave maker running the water through this set up?
Just a little sketch
(---(---->output at top of tank
( (
( G ( ( - is the plumbing pipe
( L ( > - is the output nozzle
( A ( ^ - is the direction of
( S (---->output water from sump
^ S at bottom at sand
^sump
The glass could be either the outside of the tank or inside the weir overflow to keep the plumbing hidden.

That is all I would like to know,Rick,pik or Doug or anyone based on you're reefing experience.

Thanks for any info b/c this would help in a new reef tanks water movement setup
mini mee
oooops sketch didn't work but you get the jist, I can't edit it though so anyways



[This message has been edited by mini mee (edited 02-11-2001).]

[Pik]

Ok... i looked at Paul's website... there's no picture of how he did the plumbing inside the tank, so I can't really comment on that.

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, mini, but Paul did not drill "inside" the tank. It's inside the overflow. This makes a lot of difference.

If you are to drill inside the overslow and have PVC run up inside the overflow, then down inside the tank again, you'll need a lot more than just Maxi1200. Not sure what size you'll need, but don't think the 1200 is enough.

Are you trying to do this for a new tank? or a tank that's already setup?

[Rick O]

Actually I like the idea. I didn't get it until I saw the pic. Just be sure you fully understand about the syphon and take precautions to prevent it. I think the "T" idea with a surface level outlet would solve that.

I don't think you need the three holes. I really don't understand why Paul thinks he needs a backup overflow. I see he has an e-mail address listed. Why don't you write him and see what he thinks after 9+ months.

Rick

[Rick O]

I agree with Pik. Powerheads won't work. They have practically no vertical pumping power.

Rick

[mini mee]

Hey Guys
Thanks for the replies, Rick I will e-mail him but if he is flying alot he may just want the backup if one plugs when he is out of town,Pik sorry it wasn't clear but yes in the overflow and this is a new reef not the one I have set up now and the nice thing is no visable outside plumbing
ok then if not by a power head which I know now thinking on it, would agree with both of you won't work.

If you up the the pipe size to 3/4 instead of 1/2 out of the pump then less restriction to the flow to the "T" then reduce it to 1/2 could mean maybe a Mag could do the trick say in a 125 gal.Reef,with a simple wavemaker or maybe a different pump not a Mag some other brand with very little head loss and good on /off ability?
maybe at 4' gph ? maybe or higher at 6'
to give the tank good surge.

What is, if anyone knows the output of a submersable Mag in whatever size could work or another pump?

thanks for any ideas
mini mee

[Doug1]

OK it sounds like the return is close enuff to break the siphon in which case thats fine as long as the return goes higher than tank level before the siphon break.
I think maybe something along the lines of a mag5 or 7 would prolly work OK split between 2 returns. Running them off 2 seperate pumps would add a second return line to hide. Alot of the bigger powerheads and pumps dont hold up to on/off cycling, FWIW
Are you planning on this being the
main return?


------------------
I dont advocate holding marine creatures for ransom but......since you asked
Doug, plank owner
http://hellreef.homestead.com/index.html
www.thereeftank.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000001.html

[This message has been edited by Doug1 (edited 02-11-2001).]

[mini mee]

doug thanks for the reply no just surge
mini mee

[Rick O]

Mini Mee,

I own two Mags and they come with a spec sheet that gives output at different pumping heights.

The Mag 12, which comes with a 3/4" NPT outlet, pumps over 1100 gph at 4', a little over 900 gph at 6'. The Mag 7, which comes with a 1/2" NPT outlet, pumps just under 500 gph at 4', about 400 gph at 6'.

They are quiet on start up but I'm not sure about their reliability with repeated on/off. I'm beginning to question weather there is any real benefit to a water surge in our reef tanks. I've gone both ways and seen no real difference, although my study is very un-scientific .

Rick

[mini mee]

Thanks Doug and Rick, for all the info, I may just try to experiment with it for both surge and main return to see how well it works with various pump sizes in fresh water first.

Thanks gang
mini mee