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Old 04-05-2006, 12:31 PM   #1
Matt_b
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Water Chemistry Help Pls


Ma - 1170ppm
Alk - 5.8dkh
Ca - 450

10% water changes every 7 days has not made much difference in my 9 mth 55g, its lightly stocked with 6 small fish and a few softies

I've never added anything to my tank apart from top off water and the wc's, kinda scared to add chemicals so any advice will be really appreciated
I've done some research and it seems i need to get the Ma up first then the Alk? keeping an eye on my Ca?

Be real good to hear how you would tackle those params, step by step, using explanations a 5 yr old would understand

Tanks in advance

Matt
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:36 PM   #2
whatevva
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Matt, what brand of salt are you using? and what is your salinity? also, what brand test kit for calcium and alkalinity, and what's the PH?
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:09 PM   #3
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What is your method of measurement?

What is your pH?
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:39 AM   #4
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I'm using Kent salt, i have read a few warnings about kent but i'm getting a dkh of 10 with the new water and i keep my tank at 1.026
The test kits are all salifert and whenever i check my PH its always 8.2 no matter if its morning noon or night

Thanks Guys

Matt
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:04 AM   #5
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Thats a really good CA level you got there. To raise you Alk you can try Kent Superbuffer. Add a dosage as the instructions state and wait 24 hours and see if it made a difference.
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob_Reef_Keeper
Thats a really good CA level you got there. To raise you Alk you can try Kent Superbuffer. Add a dosage as the instructions state and wait 24 hours and see if it made a difference.
You could do that, your alk is low relative to your calcium so needs to be raised.

However, baking soda is cheaper. Her is a calculator to figure out how much to add.

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

With a calcium of 450 you want to aim for a dkh of 11, so this would be 5 tsps. Dont add all at once however. Your calcium is likely to come down as you add the baking soda.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:53 PM   #7
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I also use Kent SuperBuffer. Good Stuff..just don't use too much!! Small amount and wait....
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:11 PM   #8
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That calculator looks great. I'm saving that for future use.
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drsyme
With a calcium of 450 you want to aim for a dkh of 11, so this would be 5 tsps. Dont add all at once however. Your calcium is likely to come down as you add the baking soda.
Remember that when using that calculator its important to use the actual water volume .. not the std tank size. Most 55's have about 40 gallons of water which would mean normally mean something less than 4 tsps.

Hope this helps.
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Old 04-07-2006, 09:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevva
I also use Kent SuperBuffer. Good Stuff..just don't use too much!! Small amount and wait....
I nearly bought a tub of kent super buffer today but after reading the instructions it said it raises Ph, my Ph is 8.2 which i dont think needs raising

I'm even more confused now So if i raise my Alk the Ph will rise and my Calcium will fall ??

EDIT - , i've just re-read the instructions on kents web, will the buff only raise the Ph to 8.3? no matter how much you put in??
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Old 04-07-2006, 09:54 AM   #11
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What kind of tests do you use, and are they relatively new?

A pH of 8.2 is pretty good. You may not need to do anything.
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
EDIT - , i've just re-read the instructions on kents web, will the buff only raise the Ph to 8.3? no matter how much you put in??
That is correct..you can add this stuff and keep your PH at 8.3 while bringing up th alkalinity. Use small amounts!
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatevva
That is correct..you can add this stuff and keep your PH at 8.3 while bringing up th alkalinity. Use small amounts!
Back to the lfs i go
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Old 04-07-2006, 11:37 AM   #14
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Matt,

the superbuffer will initially raise your pH, as it contains sodium carbonate in addition to the sodium BIcarbonate. I still would suggest that you use the plain ole' baking soda, due to its relatively low cost and the absence of the sodium carbonate. The pKa of sodium carbonate is around 11.4, and as such will drive your pH to close to that level during the initial establishment of equilibrium while the carbonte/bicarbonte system re-estblishes itself in the presence of the new ion concentrations. At times, the increase in the pH of the tank water, even temporarily, can make the difference between having a precipatory snow event of calcium carbonate and having the ions stay in solution. As pH rises, solubility drops for these two ions (calcium as Ca++ and bicarbonate/carbonate as -HCO3 or --CO3 ions), especially in the presence of each other and a mild hypomagnesium state (Mg should be ~1300 PPM if the tank is at 80 degrees F and 35 PPT salinity). I assume the Ma your refer to is for magnesium, which is signified by Mg. If your Mg++ ion concentration is in the 1100's, your ASW has become skewed in terms of the actual percentages of each of the conservative elements necessary to maintain appropriate calcium and alkalinity in the water column. This usually only will occur in situations where calcium is added to maintain high calcium levels without adding any alkalinity, or situations where the salt has become wet (as witnessed by clumping in the dry ASW mix) and caused changes in the composition of the mix due to the formation of insoluble salts of the mixes reactive components (for example: calcium carbonate from calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate, or calcium sulfate (gypsum) from calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate, etc.). These reactions not only result in insoluble precipitates forming in the bottom of the mixing container when dissolved, but also reduce the availability of these needed ions to distribute the solubility of the many ions that are near saturation when properly mixed to make ASW at 35 PPT. With such salt, no matter how many water changes you make, the results will pretty much be the same. This "wetting" of the salt mix occurs whenever the lid is left off the container for extended periods of time, as the mix is VERY hygroscopic, and will take moisture out of the air and begin to allow reactions of the now wet salt to occur. The fix is to get new salt, make your ASW, bring it to 35 PPT, check it again after 24 hours of heating and circulation, then make a large (>50%) water change in your system to help reestablish the proportionality of your conservative elements. This will need to be carefully matched for temp, salinity and pH when doing such a large water change (personally, I would recommend around 75% water change with the matched seawater).

Does your salt have clumps or a crust on it? Do you store it in a bag or in a "tight" container? This "wet" salt reaction may be your problem. However, unless you are adding other additives or using two part calcium and bicarb supplementation, I am pretty much at a loss. If you are using tap water (which in areas where the water is hard, has the same effect as adding unbalanced calcium and/or carbonate to the system), it COULD be your cause as well. It would be smart to test your water that you use to do your mixing for the ASW just to make sure even if you are using a filter for your system's water... Look for calcium or alkalinity in your top off or ASW mixing water.



So far, potential significant issues:
  • high calcium
  • low alkalinity
  • low magnesium
  • unknown temp and method of testing salinity
  • unknown pH swing for 24 hr cycle
  • possible skewed proportionality of ASW
  • questionable salt mix quality
  • potential salt storage issues
  • unknown additive history

These are the things we need to either ascertain or address.
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Old 04-07-2006, 12:16 PM   #15
Matt_b
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Thanks Tom, You was right that Ma was meant to mean Magnesium
I'm using the last of my kent salt now so it's possible its absorbed a fair bit of moisture as it was a big tub, it's still a powder though and i've never left the lid off
I nearly rang my wife to get some baking soda from the supermarket but i've read that some products have additives? I might go there instead of the lfs and look at the ingredients b4 i buy

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