Trace elements / iodine?

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Xerxies

'dissolved organics', now that's as polite a term for 'fish-poop' as I've ever seen.

put a sock fulla fresh, clean (rinsed), non-recycled carbon in your sump for a day and a night, should clear the color outta the water. Unfortunately, it will clear lotsa beneficial trace-elements out as well. So don't forget to remove it after a day. Then add iodine back in. Research it if you like, but I usually add a weeks worth of iodine after a days worth of carbon filtering.

Which trace elements would these be, Xerxies?
Steve

[Xerxies]

Originally Posted by SPC

Which trace elements would these be, Xerxies?
Steve

Largely-Iodine. To a lesser extent, everything. If you use an additive for 'trace minerals' or 'essential minerals' or something like that... it might NOT be a good idea to double your dose for that day. I'm loathe to reccomend overdosing your aquarium. But if you add your iodine seperately, go ahead and add some extra, it takes far more than a double-daily-dose to reach toxic levels of iodine.

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Xerxies

Largely-Iodine.

Hi Xerxies,

The only article I have seen where this was actually tested was in this one:http://web.archive.org/web/200009180.../1/default.asp

Please note the authors conclusion that Iodine is not removed with carbon to any large degree.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm

I found this to be a good read on iodine and the reef aquarium. The author seems to come to the conclusion that we are keeping up with Iodine levels simply through daily feeding. Please also note how little is known about actual "demands" by the various animals we keep in our tanks.
Steve

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Xerxies

To a lesser extent, everything. If you use an additive for 'trace minerals' or 'essential minerals' or something like that...

I don't believe that this is known for a certainty. Do you have any links you could provide that show where carbon removes essential minerals from a reef tank?

it might NOT be a good idea to double your dose for that day. I'm loathe to reccomend overdosing your aquarium. But if you add your iodine seperately, go ahead and add some extra, it takes far more than a double-daily-dose to reach toxic levels of iodine.

How did you arrive at this "toxic level"? According to the author of this same article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm Iodine is known to be toxic to certain animals in low amounts.

Here are a few other links to threads on carbon use in reef tanks. Please note that one of the points brought up is that a skimmer could very well remove as much or more of the trace elements from our tanks, but regardless, how would we know when we don't even have a firm grip on what amounts are needed for our animals to begin with?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ghlight=Carbon

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ghlight=Carbon

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ghlight=Carbon

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ghlight=Carbon

Steve

[gregt]

FWIW, In the 10 years I've been in the hobby I've never dosed iodine once. I've had xenia for years that overgrew my tank and drove me nuts, I've had plenty of shrimp that all molted normally, etc....

It's not fact, but my experience has been that it's un-necessary.

[BoomerMn]

I agree with SPC. That is all a bunch of pooh I think some are getting confused on Iodine, Iodate and Iodide, when it comes to GAC. The yellow dye isn't really fish related. It is composed of humic and fulvic acid. Most of it is from plant tissue decomposition. Collectively we call it Gilvin or Gelbstoff ( German). Gilvin is a more and better descriptive name. It likes to suck up light around 440 nm. If you can not measure "iodine", then I wouldn't be adding it.

Please note that one of the points brought up is that a skimmer could very well remove as much or more of the trace elements from our tanks


I didn't look but I think I said that. I know I have enough times. Both GAC and skimming are a function of hydrophobic absorption. GAC, also, obviously, acts as a mechanical sieve

[Xerxies]

I've done much searching for iodine supplimenting info as well, and I've already come across the article from advancedaquarist.com. It's one of the reads that indicates what is constituted as 'toxic levels' of iodine.

When i say a 'daily dose', I'm talking about the amount you would add each day, if that was your supplementing schedule. I use Kent Iodine to supplement, so I use about 5 drops a day for my 30 gallon reef tank. Doubling that dose on any given day will not harm my aquarium.

here's another URL for an FAQ on iodine: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/iodfaqs.htm

most everything I have read says exactly what you do: nobody knows anything fer sure. Well, I'd say that covers just about every facet of this hobby, since there are so many different methods that 'work' for people. The one thing that all the info I've come across agrees on is this: Test your water before determining how much of what to add.

So that's what I do. If you read my last post in this thread: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=36415
you'll see why I believe in adding iodine to my tank.

For the doubters, I should mention that the testing was done with a $20,000 lab-kit. computer operated water probes and all that. Testing for iodine, magnesium, calcium, phosphate, silicate, you name it. The results showed that (corraborated by the fact that his iodine stabilized once he stopped using carbon filtration) he was losing an excessive amount of iodine, as well as some strontium, to the carbon.

There's no need for you to take my word for it... I wouldn't. Do your own testing, come to your own conclusions. I am confident of mine.

Alright, lastly... I'm not going to argue about the necessity of adding iodine to your water. I'm not a chemistry major. But I will continue to argue with confidence, that carbon filtering removes much more than organics.

EDIT/ - I forgot to respond to this:

Please note that one of the points brought up is that a skimmer could very well remove as much or more of the trace elements from our tanks, but regardless, how would we know when we don't even have a firm grip on what amounts are needed for our animals to begin with?

skimming: personal observation - two 3-oz socks of carbon removed more iodine from a 55-gallon tank over a period of two weeks than I skim out of my 30-gal in a year.

amounts needed?: That's easy - compare what you have to what the ocean has, adjust as needed. (yes I'm aware that some areas of our oceans contain more or less of 'this or that' than another, but most all the reefs are growing in simliar, 'ideal' conditions)

[BoomerMn]

I forgot to post one of our old threads

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...e&pagenumber=1

[BoomerMn]

I should mention that the testing was done with a $20,000 lab-kit. computer operated water probes and all that. Testing for iodine, magnesium, calcium, phosphate, silicate, you name it.

Which one ? Is it accepted for seawater ? Was it testing for Iodine ? The issue is Iodate and Iodide. I can tell you right off the bat that GAC will remove Iodine. That is why there is a test, that is quite common on GAC data sheets, called Iodine #. Go look at that link I posted. As I said before, people are getting their Iodine, Iodate and Iodides mixed up

In the link I posted make sure you follow ALL the related links

[Xerxies]

ack... I don't have that info at hand, but it is certainly a certifiable marine-lab. One of the clients we do tank-maintance for is a sooper-rich-spend-two-kajillion-on-the-reef-hobby kinda guy. He is a highly educated rich bastage, and he purchased the lab specifically for use with his aquaria, although the lab was manufactured for use in oceanic research. It's very accurate. It connects via USB to a PC, or to a remote display meter, and has any number of different probes that send feedback to the PC, one for each type of element/chemical/mineral worth testing.

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Xerxies

I've done much searching for iodine supplimenting info as well, and I've already come across the article from advancedaquarist.com. It's one of the reads that indicates what is constituted as 'toxic levels' of iodine.

But where in that article does it state that "it takes far more than a double-daily-dose to reach toxic levels of iodine"
I think that we need to be very careful making statements such as this when our animals lives are at stake.

When i say a 'daily dose', I'm talking about the amount you would add each day, if that was your supplementing schedule. I use Kent Iodine to supplement, so I use about 5 drops a day for my 30 gallon reef tank. Doubling that dose on any given day will not harm my aquarium.

How do you know this? Do you know it won't hurt another reefers aquarium that may house different animals than you have?

[b]here's another URL for an FAQ on iodine: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/iodfaqs.htm

most everything I have read says exactly what you do: nobody knows anything fer sure. Well, I'd say that covers just about every facet of this hobby, since there are so many different methods that 'work' for people.

I disagree with this as a blanket statement.

The one thing that all the info I've come across agrees on is this: Test your water before determining how much of what to add.

So that's what I do. If you read my last post in this thread: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=36415
you'll see why I believe in adding iodine to my tank.

For the doubters, I should mention that the testing was done with a $20,000 lab-kit. computer operated water probes and all that. Testing for iodine, magnesium, calcium, phosphate, silicate, you name it. The results showed that (corraborated by the fact that his iodine stabilized once he stopped using carbon filtration) he was losing an excessive amount of iodine, as well as some strontium, to the carbon.

There's no need for you to take my word for it... I wouldn't. Do your own testing, come to your own conclusions. I am confident of mine.

How many tests were performed, and over what period of time? Were there any water changes done between these test samples? Any animals added or removed? Same type as well as amount of food during these tests?

I'm not trying to be smart with these questions, Xerxies, but if we are to talk science, then these types of questions need to be asked in order to know if we are comparing apples to apples. If one of our fellow reefers were to read what you posted about going ahead and double dosing with Iodine, then I would like to be sure that they are aware that there may be a problem with this before they try it in their reef tank.

Alright, lastly... I'm not going to argue about the necessity of adding iodine to your water. I'm not a chemistry major. But I will continue to argue with confidence, that carbon filtering removes much more than organics.

I'm not a chemistry major either, Xerxies, thats why I try and pay attention to what the chemists write on these boards. I also don't care for arguing as I much prefer to discuss.

EDIT/ - I forgot to respond to this: skimming: personal observation - two 3-oz socks of carbon removed more iodine from a 55-gallon tank over a period of two weeks than I skim out of my 30-gal in a year.

How do you know this? Did you test a years worth of skimmate for Iodine ?

amounts needed?: That's easy - compare what you have to what the ocean has, adjust as needed. (yes I'm aware that some areas of our oceans contain more or less of 'this or that' than another, but most all the reefs are growing in simliar, 'ideal' conditions)

How does an average hobbyist go about testing for Iodine?
Steve

[BoomerMn]

I don't have that info at hand, but it is certainly a certifiable marine-lab

Well, sorry but I don't buy it, being that I have sitting in front of me the accepted methods for measuring "Iodine" in seawater. No such thing as just sticking a probe in the water.

The Marine Geochemistry of Iodine, George T.F. Wong, Reviews in Aqautic Sciences, Vol 4, Isssue 1.

[Xerxies]

Like I said, do your own research. I did mine. I'm not lying about the lab, Boomer.. why would I?

Steve: you game me a lot to respond to... lemmee take a hack at it:

dosing: if I choose to dose weekly, as opposed to daily, I'm adding 35 drops all at once. This I've done, and never to my detriment. so a double-daily-dose, or 10 drops... that worries me not at all. Please keep in mind that I do test periodicly to ensure I'm not poisoning my tank. And if you want to know more about it, go to Kentmarine.com, and research the intended use of their products. So now tell me: 'that's a company trying to sell you more of their product'. to which I say: 'they won't be selling any at all if they are posioning customer tanks with their reccomendations'

and I did say 'MY aquarium'.

I agree with your concerns about 'other peoples tank inhabitants' and I would feel badly if my advice caused anyone to lose a critter. But your assumtions are as subject to misinterpretation as anybody elses, and if they are worth paying attention to, then they are based on personal experience/observation, as mine are.

The testing: the testing hasn't stopped since it started. day-to-day comparisons since the initial depletion of iodine have confirmed that carbon leaches iodine, to a great degree, and strontium, to a lesser degree. It's not difficult to deduce when you can look at the charts and compare values accounting for water-changes, FW-top-off, supplementing, temperature changes, etc. (it really is a top notch lab). We spent the first 10 days of testing trying to determine whether or not Sea-lab28 does what it claims (we determined that it keeps calcium and magnesium levels optimum, but the rest of the results were too varied to credit sea-lab28 with it's claimed 'chemical sentience')

skimming iodine: we had to add more iodine to his 55-gallon tank to bring the levels up than I have used to date in my aquarium.



testing iodine/iodide: did a search for the seachem test: http://www.amazonmoosey.com/tek9.asp...cific=jpdmool0

Boomer... i dunno what to tell ya. disbelieve me if you like. I've no reason to lie.

[BoomerMn]

Kentmarine.com, and research the intended use of their products. So now tell me: 'that's a company trying to sell you more of their product'. to which I say: 'they won't be selling any at all if they are posioning customer tanks with their reccomendations'

You have allot to learn about aquarium companies ad their real game plan. I have been at it for 3 decades.

It's not difficult to deduce when you can look at the charts and compare values accounting for water-changes, FW-top-off, supplementing, temperature changes, etc. (it really is a top notch lab).

Where are these charts, I want to see them and the methods used.

We are quite aware that some aquarium compaines make test kits for Sr, Iodine and Borate. Sure is funny, how the only compaines on this planet that make such tests kts are aquarium companies. As of this date, the Borate kit, has as ready shown to be very inacurrate. Making such kits as these three is not an easy task. You keep hounding on Iodine. GAC will remove Iodine but Iodate and Iodide are another issue. Life forms dont' use Iodine. You need to know what you are testing for and what life forms use, before you make these **assumptions**. Your are not listening. GAC will suck up Iodine like a sponge. I can tell you didn't read the link and related links I posted. It explains it all

Boomer... i dunno what to tell ya. disbelieve me if you like.

Sorry, I can't until I see a method. It may be you are getting numbers but they may be meaningless. Just because some kit or some other test method says something is there is not valid, until it has been comfired by other means that are reliable. Companies sell CO2 kits for seawater, they can't work in seawater PERIOD. There are hosts of other electro means for testing, most are not suited to seawater but they sell them for seawater, says seawater right on it. You will see refractometrs say for seawater but they are not accurate in seawater. You must make a -1.5 ppt correction and many don't know this.

[Xerxies]

Originally Posted by BoomerMn

You have allot to learn about aquarium companies ad their real game plan. I have been at it for 3 decades.

why do you assume that I'm a total newbie? because my conclusions/opinions/theories differ with yours? I'm not inclined to prove anything to you, nor do I appreciate your condescending attitude, it's not impressing me at all.

Originally Posted by BoomerMn

Where are these charts, I want to see them and the methods used.

I don't have them at hand, I'm at my day job. And I told you, it's a $20,000 marine-lab. Not some BS marketed 'test-kit' from one of the aquarium companies.

Originally Posted by BoomerMn

We are quite aware that some aquarium compaines make test kits for Sr, Iodine and Borate. Sure is funny, how the only compaines on this planet that make such tests kts are aquarium companies. As of this date, the Borate kit, has as ready shown to be very inacurrate. Making such kits as these three is not an easy task. You keep hounding on Iodine. GAC will remove Iodine but Iodate and Iodide are another issue. Life forms dont' use Iodine. You need to know what you are testing for and what life forms use, before you make these **assumptions**. Your are not listening. GAC will suck up Iodine like a sponge. I can tell you didn't read the link and related links I posted. It explains it all

who else are you going to sell marine aquarium test kits too, if not marine aquarium keepers? Makes sense to me that the companies involved in the industry are going to be producing the test-kits. And no, I'm not listening to your babble about Iodide. I followed your link, and read about how an apparently well-respected chemist couldn't make an honest determination. He repeatedly gave his opinion, which you then corraborated with 20-year-old literature. Not impressive.

Originally Posted by BoomerMn

Sorry, I can't until I see a method. It may be you are getting numbers but they may be meaningless. Just because some kit or some other test method says something is there is not valid, until it has been comfired by other means that are reliable. Companies sell CO2 kits for seawater, they can't work in seawater PERIOD. There are hosts of other electro means for testing, most are not suited to seawater but they sell them for seawater, says seawater right on it. You will see refractometrs say for seawater but they are not accurate in seawater. You must make a -1.5 ppt correction and many don't know this.

So then we are agreed that the available information is refutable, and the means of testing are subject to various forms of misinterpretation. Therefor, I prefer to go with my personal observations/experiences, which are as valid as anything else I've seen.