Trace elements / iodine?

[gregt]

Okey dokie. Time to break out the water hose and hose you two down. Let's keep it friendly like, shall we?

Xerxies,
I would like to see some references that show that iodine is necessarily and or limiting for any animals in our tanks. It would also be nice to see some reference that would show that it is "testable", although I realize that is difficult to provide. I have read many many documents that show that the test on the market are not accurate or reliable.

[Xerxies]

please note that I do not agree with, nor oppose the following information, I only post it at the request of the moderator. As far as I'm concerned it is but literature. Heed it or not, your prerroggotive.

for the info on the needs/limits of iodine/iodide on livestock, I'll refer you to the same article that has been so popular in this thread, written by one Randy Holmes-Farly, chemist. Note the bibliography at the bottom, you could spend days researching this one paper. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm


from Salifert on Iodine testing:

Iodine Test

Iodine is present in NSW (Natural seawater) in a very low concentration (0.06 mg/L or 0.06 ppm).

Iodine occurs as different species. Some of them are iodide, iodate and hypoiodite.

Generally when we say iodine then we mean one or more iodine species without a clear distinction being made. NSW contains predominantly iodate and to a slight extent iodide.

There is however a misconception among many hobbyists that iodide predominates in NSW. This is however false.

Test kits which are not capable in detecting iodate might not really be suitable for aquarium use. Since in an aquarium iodide can be transferred to iodate. This means that if a test kit is used not capable in detecting iodate, a false low total iodine concentration (sum of iodate and iodide) will be obtained and the iodate concentration can climb far too high and possibly upsetting the aquarium environment.

The Salifert Iodine Profi Test measures all naturally occurring iodine species such as iodate, iodide, molecular iodine and hypoiodite. No other test kit offers this possibility.

Salifert’s Natural-Iodine additive is highly concentrated and contains a large portion iodate and also some iodide.

Salifert stands alone in offering such an advanced and well thought formulation.

Approx. a total of 40 tests per kit. Measures iodide and iodate (together with hypoiodite and molecular iodine) in separate steps.

[gregt]

I don't listen to anything that Salifert guy says.

[BoomerMn]

You have allot to learn about aquarium companies ad their real game plan. I have been at it for 3 decades.

You completly missed my point here and then went on to your theories. Many companines really could care less about you or your tank and OFTEN mislead aqaurium keepers. Quite trying to put a spin on the real subject. Bt the way, Salifert is not one of them. Habib, owner of Salifert, is on of my best internet friends. And I respeck him and his company more than any of them by far.

I followed your link, and read about how an apparently well-respected chemist couldn't make an honest determination. He repeatedly gave his opinion, which you then corraborated with 20-year-old literature. Not impressive.

Please quite trying to twist things and put a spin on them. That chemist is Randy, my best frined on the internet. My home is his Chem Forum. Go back and reread that, wait I'll post it. Show me, where I said that chemist/Randy could not make a honest determination ???? Show were it looked like I said or even indicated that.

Yah Randy, that Wong guy

Just for the heck of it

Lobban & Wynne, The Biology of Seaweeds, 1981, 786 pg. Polysiphonia urceolata and Ectocarpus fasiculatus appear to have an absoute requirement for iodine (Fries 1966; Pedersen 1969a). Iodine appears to be essential for growth, morphogenesis and reproduction of Petalonia fascia (Hsiao1969 ) and Ectocarpus siliculosus (Woolery & Lewin 1973 ). Addition of iodine to the medium is stimulatory to the Conchocelis phase of Porpyra tenera although essentiality has not been demonstrated (Iwasaki 1967). Optimum and inhibitory concentrations of iodine for 15 species of seaweeds are given by Hsiao (1969). Concentrations of iodine in 'average seawater' (c. 60 ug / l) appear to be in the general range required by seaweeds, but many, at times, either limit or inhibit the growth or development of some seaweeds (Hsiao 1969). Many seaweeds are strong concentrators of iodine and bromine (Vinogradov 1953 ; Saenko et al. 1978) __________________

This is on marine algae, Info I gave him. Where did I say "iodine is not needed by some marine liffe ? I said it should not be added unless you can accurately test for it. Where did I disagree with him on anything please point it out, I want quotes. How come you quote here but not from that thread I sent you to ?

Here is Habib from that same thread

I have not seen any iodide/iodate depletion in seawater by carbon.

So you take things from Hab's test kit but then miss his point on GAC absorbing "Iodine". not seen any iodide/iodate depeltion by carbon. Randy says the same exact thing. So it is you disagreeing with the respected chemists not me. And you do it repeatedly.

I agree with Greg. You have not shown anything. Your posts show nothing.

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Xerxies

So now tell me: 'that's a company trying to sell you more of their product'. to which I say: 'they won't be selling any at all if they are posioning customer tanks with their reccomendations'

I don't know if we can assume this though, Xerxies. There are different levels of "poisioning" a tank. One way would be to have all inhabitants perish within a short time period, another would be a build up of toxins over a period of time leading to the final demise of the animal. The point is that we really don't know how large amounts of Iodine may affect each marine animal, and if your adding more than sea water levels (which I presume you are when you add a weekly dose) then it is a guessing game as to the long term affects. Are you saying that Kent Marine recommends adding more than natural sea water levels at times? You stated earlier: amounts needed?: That's easy - compare what you have to what the ocean has, adjust as needed. So you are you saying that this adjustment can be made weekly instead of daily?

I agree with your concerns about 'other peoples tank inhabitants' and I would feel badly if my advice caused anyone to lose a critter. But your assumtions are as subject to misinterpretation as anybody elses, and if they are worth paying attention to, then they are based on personal experience/observation, as mine are.

You lost me here. My assumptions when based on potential lethal chemicals to add to my reef tank are not based on my "personal experience/observation", these decisions are based on what the experts in the field have to say about them. If we are going to base our beliefs on experience/observation, then we could look to the many experienced reefers who have never dosed Iodine, and yet their animals show no signs of problems due to this.

The testing: the testing hasn't stopped since it started. day-to-day comparisons since the initial depletion of iodine have confirmed that carbon leaches iodine,

Carbon leaches Iodine?

to a great degree, and strontium, to a lesser degree. It's not difficult to deduce when you can look at the charts and compare values accounting for water-changes, FW-top-off, supplementing, temperature changes, etc. (it really is a top notch lab). We spent the first 10 days of testing trying to determine whether or not Sea-lab28 does what it claims (we determined that it keeps calcium and magnesium levels optimum, but the rest of the results were too varied to credit sea-lab28 with it's claimed 'chemical sentience')

This sounds like a great test you guy's ran here and would be very valuable to the reefing community. May I make a suggestion, why don't you write this up in the form of an article and submit it to one of the on line reefing magazines?

skimming iodine: we had to add more iodine to his 55-gallon tank to bring the levels up than I have used to date in my aquarium.

...but then we get back into the apples to apples deal, there could be other differences in your two tanks (animals, DSB, water changes, nuisance algae, caulerpa, cyano, etc...) that could be accounting for this. I am curious, with this sophisticated lab at your disposal, why didn't they check for Iodine levels in the skimmate?

testing iodine/iodide: did a search for the seachem test: http://www.amazonmoosey.com/tek9.asp...cific=jpdmool0

I will let Boomer, and other chemists address the validity of the various tests on this element as I don't know enough about chemistry to comment on this.
Steve

[BoomerMn]

The testing: the testing hasn't stopped since it started. day-to-day comparisons since the initial depletion of iodine have confirmed that carbon leaches iodine,

Carbon leaches Iodine?

He also said Sr. I think what he is trying to saying is that the carbon adsorbed iodine and Sr. It is a confusing statement. There is no such thing as iodine or Sr in carbon in fresh carbon, so that must be it. I don't think he understands the word leaching, in this sense of chemistry, which means to " to remove a soluble constitute by water". He should have used the word adsorbed or absorbed. He has it backwards. Water does not leach, the carbon leaches things out, such as carbon leaching PO4 into your tank, raising your PO4 level in the tank.

[Xerxies]

this is getting old, and the questions you guys are asking me now show that your not putting any thought into them before you ask. for example:

So you are you saying that this adjustment can be made weekly instead of daily? (iodine supplementing)

you really need me to answer that? and your assumption that I'm adding in more than needed to maintain the NSW equivilent, because I add daily... rediculous, if I add daily, it might be 5 drops, whereas weekly, well that might be 35 drops. The amount added is based on the results of a test. I don't assume that the 'amount per gallon' dosage is accurate. Gallons don't use nutrients, animals do. The only way to be sure is to test regularly.

You lost me here. My assumptions when based on potential lethal chemicals to add to my reef tank are not based on my "personal experience/observation", these decisions are based on what the experts in the field have to say about them. If we are going to base our beliefs on experience/observation, then we could look to the many experienced reefers who have never dosed Iodine, and yet their animals show no signs of problems due to this.

I have seen first hand what can happen to animals once you run out of iodine. It was a sad sight to behold. We verified that it was an iodine (iodate for boomer) deficeincy causing the problem, through testing. the one thing that HAS been agreed upon in this forum is that the 'experts' haven't concluded anything. So I place more faith in my personal observations. I don't know that iodine MUST be added to your water regularly to maintain appropriate levels. But I do know that carbon pulls it out fast enough that my friend 55-gal had zilch, after only two weeks of carbon filtering. And we learned that without iodine, his poor shrimp could grow no new carapace to replace the ones they molted. Personal observation.

This sounds like a great test you guy's ran here and would be very valuable to the reefing community. May I make a suggestion, why don't you write this up in the form of an article and submit it to one of the on line reefing magazines?

No thanks, I've taken enough flak already from the 'experts' in this forum. Experts who like to parrot reports made by others, whom in turn based their findings on research done by others, that was dated as long ago as 1969... 35 years ago. Do you know what the experts knew about marine ecology/biology 35 years ago? They knew that the water was salty. (alright I'm exaggerating, but c'mon, 35 years!)

Greg, you asked me for info on testing, which I provided, then you disputed. Then Boomer validates the info, praising the company, or it's owner. This after Boomer had refuted the very same info earlier, quoting his friend the chemist. I'm done trying to placate you. As I said before, I'm confident of my findings, as I actually did some of my own research.

Boomer, I never said the crap your trying to credit me with:

Please quite trying to twist things and put a spin on them. That chemist is Randy, my best frined on the internet. My home is his Chem Forum. Go back and reread that, wait I'll post it. Show me, where I said that chemist/Randy could not make a honest determination ???? Show were it looked like I said or even indicated that.

I never said that YOU said anything about Randy's findings. I said that his reply's in that thread contained many, many, "in my opinion" statements, which indicates to me that he is not confident of any factual information, and can only say... 'in my opinion'.

Water does not leach, the carbon leaches things out, such as carbon leaching PO4 into your tank, raising your PO4 level in the tank.

I didn't say that the water leached. I said the carbon leached. it leached the iodine out of the water. i use the term like you would descibe what a leach does: sucks stuff out. Sorry for any misunderstanding, as I said, I'm no chemist.

I'm absolutely finished debating this. flame me all you want, discredit my findings, whatever makes you feel good. I won't be responding. And I'd like to apologize to this forum's community for the time they wasted reading this thread. I'd also like to apologize to the thread-starter. I never intended to hijack your thread, I only meant to offer you the benefit of my experiences.

[BoomerMn]

More spins;

I have seen first hand what can happen to animals once you run out of iodine.

I don't buy it at all. Many reefers don't add iodine in any form and have no problems. You are assuming it is iodine.

We verified that it was an iodine (iodate for boomer) deficiency causing the problem, through testing

You have not verified anything, you just make remarks, not data at all

And we learned that without iodine, his poor shrimp could grow no new carapace to replace the ones they molted. Personal observation.

How do you know that did you get it assayed. I never used iodine in any form for 25 years and they molted just perfect, as have many not dosing iodine. It means much of nothing. Maybe it is the food you feed him. Maybe you should go back to that thread and see what Mike Noren said.



Boomer, I never said the crap your trying to credit me with

Well sorry, but that is how about anyone would read it.

[be]I never said that YOU said anything about Randy's findings.[/b]

But you tried to come across that way, if not, Sorry, but the you need to be a little more careful on who you write things. Because to me it came out as if I was attacking Randy.

Greg, you asked me for info on testing, which I provided, then you disputed.

Where, not data, no methods, just posts from websites and test kit data. Would you like me to invite Habib over here to this thread for a look ? I pretty much already know what they are going to say, about your data and test methods and approach to the issue

I didn't say that the water leached. I said the carbon leached. it leached the iodine out of the water. I use the term like you would describe what a leach does:sucks stuff out

No you didn't. Go back and read it. Water does not leach things out. When carbon or a substance leach's something, it is putting it into the water. It does not go from the water to the substance, that is called adsorption/absorption. You are trying to compare it to an animal, a "leech", aka, blood sucker, which sucks things out

Then Boomer validates the info, praising the company, or it's owner.

More spin zone. Quite spinning things around to suit you, you are not good at it. Validated what info. ? Where did I refute the info, give me quotes. Quite trying to confuse people with this line. FOR EVERYONE TO SEE;

You have allot to learn about aquarium companies ad their real game plan.

I added


You completely missed my point here and then went on to your theories. **Many companies** really could care less about you or your tank and OFTEN mislead aquarium keepers. Quite trying to put a spin on the real subject. Bt the way, **Salifert is not one of them**.

I stated

Which one ? Is it accepted for seawater ? Was it testing for Iodine ? The issue is Iodate and Iodide.

You are not using a Salifert. If there is a good kit it is this one. Habib cares about his products and the may reefers, that is why he is on many forums, unlike other companies trying to help reefers. No one else is even close, as they don 't care. Salifert is in another league by itself. Habib answers question that have nothing to do with his kits and spends ample time at it.

Go back and read

**Many companies** really could care less about you or your tank and OFTEN mislead aquarium keepers

And said at least twice now Salifert is not one of them

Greg said most of these kits are not accurate. That does not mean all, quite spinning things to suit you. I agree many are inaccurate, we have proved that. Where did I say that the Iodine kit by Salifert was known to be accurate or inaccurate ? More Spin Zone. I made no comment on the kit as I don't know how accurate it is. If I was to recommend one this would be it.

This after Boomer had refuted the very same info earlier, quoting his friend the chemist

Refuted what ? I said GAC removes Iodine and does much of nothing for Iodate and Iodide.

Here

You keep hounding on Iodine. GAC will remove Iodine but Iodate and Iodide are another issue

and

As I said before, people are getting their Iodine, Iodate and Iodides mixed up

That is three times now or is it four times ? I'm loosing count


and my friends quote says just what I said

I have not seen any iodide/iodate depletion in seawater by carbon




Do you know what the experts knew about marine ecology/biology 35 years ago? They knew that the water was salty.



Hummm, YUP big time. My majors were zoology and geology, minor chemistry. My library dates back to much more than 35 years to present. Over a 1,000 books on these subjects. Like the one I used to help Randy on the algae iodine issue, you know the one "20 years old". Biology of Seaweeds. They new allot more than YOU think they knew.

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Xerxies

this is getting old, and the questions you guys are asking me now show that your not putting any thought into them before you ask. for example:

I can assure you that I am putting plenty of thought into my questions, Now whether or not I am phrasing them correctly is a possibility.

you really need me to answer that? and your assumption that I'm adding in more than needed to maintain the NSW equivilent, because I add daily... rediculous, if I add daily, it might be 5 drops, whereas weekly, well that might be 35 drops. The amount added is based on the results of a test. I don't assume that the 'amount per gallon' dosage is accurate. Gallons don't use nutrients, animals do. The only way to be sure is to test regularly.

Ah, I see where we might be getting a bit mixed up here. My intention with that question was not to ask how much you add daily or weekly, it was meant to point out the fact that if added weekly, then the reef tank would not have natural sea water levels on a consistent basis. If it takes 5 drops/day, in your tank, to equal NSW levels, then by adding 35 drops/ week your tank would experience higher than normal levels of Iodine for 6 of the seven days.


I have seen first hand what can happen to animals once you run out of iodine. It was a sad sight to behold.

...and I guess this is where we who have never added Iodine to our tanks wonder why the same things haven't happened to our animals. My tank has been running now for a little over 4 years and yet I have never experienced any "lack of idine" problems. My explanation for this is that my animals must obviously be receiving adequate amounts of Iodine through other means, most likely IMO from daily feeding.

We verified that it was an iodine (iodate for boomer) deficeincy causing the problem, through testing.

I agree that you are satisfied that this varification is accurate, others of us however, would need to see more in the way of data etc... in order to accept the conclusions you reached.

one thing that HAS been agreed upon in this forum is that the 'experts' haven't concluded anything. So I place more faith in my personal observations.

I can understand what you are saying, however, others of us have had quite opposite "personal observations" (never dosed iodine on purpose).

t know that iodine MUST be added to your water regularly to maintain appropriate levels. But I do know that carbon pulls it out fast enough that my friend 55-gal had zilch, after only two weeks of carbon filtering. And we learned that without iodine, his poor shrimp could grow no new carapace to replace the ones they molted. Personal observation.

And my personal observation is that I run carbon,and have never dosed iodine,and yet my shrimp appear to have no problems molting.

thanks, I've taken enough flak already from the 'experts' in this forum. Experts who like to parrot reports made by others, whom in turn based their findings on research done by others, that was dated as long ago as 1969... 35 years ago. Do you know what the experts knew about marine ecology/biology 35 years ago? They knew that the water was salty. (alright I'm exaggerating, but c'mon, 35 years!)

Huh? What does any of this have to do with new findings that you might have made through testing? BTW, you may want to ask Spanky what they new 35 years ago about ecology/biology. For example, did you know that stony corals were being cultivated in a closed system over 100 years ago?

absolutely finished debating this. flame me all you want, discredit my findings, whatever makes you feel good. I won't be responding. And I'd like to apologize to this forum's community for the time they wasted reading this thread. I'd also like to apologize to the thread-starter. I never intended to hijack your thread, I only meant to offer you the benefit of my experiences.

I'm sorry that you see this discussion this way, Xerxies, I can assure you that no "flames" were intended from my direction. I think alot of times that people can take questioning of their observations as a personal attack, when in fact the questions were meant to try and clear up an issue. If you will go back and look at your original reply to this thread, I think you will notice where your response was not worded as a personal observation, but more along the lines of an absolute fact.
Steve

[BoomerMn]

It really is not an issue to see what GAC can remove as far as tests go. It could be done easily. Problem is fnding someone interested in it, as far as this hobby goes, to do the tests and spend the money. One could say the same thing about skimmate. I sometimes find it amusing on all that tests that have been doen in the reef hobby and the money and time spent on them, yet these two often asked questions, have never eben tested. Same could be said about sea mixes. What is really in the bag. A simple test through an XRD would tell what exactly what is in the bag, but would not tell you, what from that bag ,will actually end up going into solution. You would know what they put in there and what grades of chemical they used and how much of each.

[BoomerMn]

Just when I thought is was safe to go back in the water SPC dropped this, I think I missed it before.


We verified that it was an iodine (iodate for boomer) deficeincy causing the problem, through testing.


Where did I say it was iodate that was a deficeincy. How do you know it was not Iodide casing it. Which one was it ? See how easy things can be picked apart. Where in your tests does it show it was either or one of them? Without an assay or study on the shrimp you don't know what it was as far as the molting goes. To much "iodine" in the water can cause excessive moting. What data or ref. have you given on shrimp and their molting patterns, in regards to "iodine" ? It is actually iodide, not iodate. Most of this info is based on FW shrimp, not SW shrimp, where "iodine" is qutie low.

On marine shrimp

Who uses iodine: Shrimp

As one moves up the food chain to more sophisticated organisms, data on their ability to take up iodine from the water column becomes very sparse. Shrimp are known to have a need for iodine to grow, but that is only known in terms of a dietary requirement. The shrimp, Penaeus chinensis O'sbeck, for example, grows optimally when the diet contains 0.003% iodine.56

Shrimp apparently incorporate substantial amounts of iodoorganics into their bodies. The shrimp Pandalus borealis, for example, incorporates between 0.04 and 2 ppm iodine as iodoorganic compounds depending on the particular body tissues examined. Their roe were somewhat higher, up to 4 ppm iodine as iodoorganic compounds.57 Shrimp shells and other parts can contain up to 17 ppm by dry weight iodine, the majority of which is iodoorganic compounds58, but the values are still far lower than for other inverts like macroalgae, sponges, or gorgonia.

Still, the amount contained says nothing about whether iodine is an important requirement. I could find no scientific studies that showed that shrimp need iodine from the water column, but neither could I find any that demonstrates that they do not.

So on to one last point on iodine and shrimp

Our shrimp have no iodine, less salt and a better shelf life,” boasted Pearl. “They’re sweeter because we grow them in groundwater that is substantially less saline than ocean water.

So much for shrimp needing iodine

http://www.floridafarmbureau.org/fla...k2/shremp.html

[ruhspolostar]

Is greg gonna have to potty train you guys like he did me, I used to be bad

isn't iodine naturally found in fish, and thats why pregnant women shouldnt eat (I'm not sure about that) , and I know crustaceans need it to molt