To Skim or not to skim. That is the question

[marianna]

I know, it's been a while. I have been an electronic bookworm for about a year now and have been doing a lot of research. My husband thinks I am just totally nuts.

On to my question.

Basic SPS frag tank... Bare bottom, egg crate, MH, high water flow, etc. Full sump set up. Protein skimmer chamber/fito, live rock refugium chamber /water addition chamber/ return.

Reading through many articles and watching many propogation videos, the major researchers (Eric Borneman, SanJay, Adam and the like) mention that nitrogen is the main food source for corals. Phytoplankton, zooplankton, etc. We utilize protein skimmers to clear out the bad but it also clears out the good. If you run a frag tank without any of the detritus creators (ie, fish, etc) , is it necessary to skim?

[Doug1]

Coral slime and live rock sloughing off organics will create organics in the water even if you add no food, adding typical phyto and zooplankton will add phosphates to the system
your choice

[marianna]

Can you expand on that a bit?

The slime that corals put out is organic yes. Based on a specific research paper by Eric Borneman, he states that it is the symbiotic relationship between the Zooxanthelae and the actual polyps. This slime is caused when the coral rejects the Zooxanthelae.
The only live rock that I have in the tank is in the refugium as part of the organic filtration. Really basic frag tank. Only coral and snails. While you say it is up to me, I want what is best for the coral. If the skimmer removes the good, we have to feed the corals even more which causes an ever ending cycle. However, if you take into account that there is limited organics in the tank, is protein skimming truly necessary and a waste? Specifically with no fish, live sand bed and the like?

Reason for asking this question? In the very near future I plan on building a green house for this hobby of ours and if I need skimmers, I don't mind to purchase for the need of the coral however, if it is actually stunting their growth and causing an unnecessary expense, I would prefer not to go that direction.

[Mike01z]

is there really a chance that you will have no fish though?

Thats what you have to ask yourself,

The safe bet is to skim and if you need nutrients add them.

In the long run with an SPS tank even a 1k skimmer is only a drop in the bucket and chances are you won't be purchasing a 1k skimmer anyways.

[Doug1]

Well try it on a small scale and see if the results are to your liking, you can always add skimmer later if need be.
Hopefully someone with SPS experience will weigh in on the feeding issue

[Fly Guy]

Fish poo is your main food for sps(besides light of course) and if you intend on no fish, as well as no other feeding, you will have unhealthy and pale colored sps.

Lots of water changes can make up for lack of a skimmer

I keep very few fish in relation to how many gallons of reef I keep, but i try to pick big poopers for most of the fish I do keep. I.E. triggers and tangs

[marianna]

Oh, I don't have any intention not to feed the corals. In fact, I have been researching a lot of recipes to make sure that they have everything they need to grow quickly and very healthy. Skimming takes away the nutrients we put into our tanks causing us to feed the corals more often thus causing a major cycle. Feed more, skim more, feed more skim more.... Thus the question I have been asking and wondering if anyone out there might have an sps frag system that doesn't have a protein skimmer, growth rate, polyp extension, etc and how long their system might be running this way...

[marianna]

Originally Posted by Doug1

Well try it on a small scale and see if the results are to your liking

I currently have a 6 foot frag system set up with the skimmer. I also have an average of 15 small to medium SPS colonies and an average of 30 frags in this tank. I am a firm believer that corals are living creatures and deserve as much care as possible and eliminating undue stress is a must. I am hoping that someone might have tried this before I test on them... I guess cutting back the skimming to certain times of the day would not negatively impact them too much. IE., most corals feed at night when their polyps are fully extended... skimming through the day and shutting the skimmer down at night when I typically feed them shouldn't cause too much harm and see how that works? They need time to feed right?

Thoughts?

[Fly Guy]

Originally Posted by marianna

Oh, I don't have any intention not to feed the corals. In fact, I have been researching a lot of recipes to make sure that they have everything they need to grow quickly and very healthy. Skimming takes away the nutrients we put into our tanks causing us to feed the corals more often thus causing a major cycle. Feed more, skim more, feed more skim more.... Thus the question I have been asking and wondering if anyone out there might have an sps frag system that doesn't have a protein skimmer, growth rate, polyp extension, etc and how long their system might be running this way...

With all due respect, what do you plan on feeding your sps corals?? finding particles both fine enough, and what a variety of sps corals will actually eat is more complicated than a little reading or there would be many successful sps keepers not keeping fish.

Now if we are talking about a simple frag system in which it is intended to ho0ld corals for a short time before selling, and not any real propogation, then running a system that way may be more realistic

Also, the notion that you can "overskim" only applies to such a very tiny percentage of reefers who have went far and above what most reefers have as far as efficiency of set up. The amount that "overskimming" gets discussed in relevance to how many people it actually could apply to are very different numbers.

99% + of reefers hardly have to worry about overskimming, as to accomplish it, your entire systme needsd built with that goal in mind. One of my tanks in particualr is a BB system in which I never have to siphon the floor of the main tank as I get absolutely everything suspended and to the skimmer for permanent removal. I myslef havent reached a point in which I can overskim.

To be sure...i dont mean to be discouraging. I encourage you to try it, and if you can run a system in which you describe while still maintaining good growth and color, I would love to watch and learn how you did it.

[marianna]

Originally Posted by Fly Guy

Finding particles both fine enough, and what a variety of sps corals will actually eat is more complicated than a little reading or there would be many successful sps keepers not keeping fish.

Oh I understand that and have been speaking with several researchers about it as well as testing a few different recipes I have been investigating. It hasn't been easy but, we have to be doing something right or we wouldn't have the color or the life that we are seeing today in some of our frag tanks. Corals do eat more than just fish waste. They eat near microscopic bacteria, phyto, etc....

Originally Posted by Fly Guy

Now if we are talking about a simple frag system in which it is intended to ho0ld corals for a short time before selling, and not any real propogation, then running a system that way may be more realistic

This is not what I am speaking of. I am talking full blown coral farming in a greenhouse environment for full acroculture propogation which is why I am asking some of the questions and seeking to understand a few things.

Originally Posted by Fly Guy

To be sure...i dont mean to be discouraging. I encourage you to try it, and if you can run a system in which you describe while still maintaining good growth and color, I would love to watch and learn how you did it.

Current setup... currently have 900 gallons of water running through my house... each on it's own sump.. Filtration... Water does not co mingle in the tanks we currently have so if one tank does have an issue it doesn't cause havoc across the other tanks. If I am to set up a coral farm in a similar fashion, the hardware alone will kill me in cost... You are not discouraging. Trust me. You are forcing me to think through a few things and that is why I started with this question. To skim or not to skim... SPS has only been introduced in the reef aquaria hobby for 20 years... that is not much time to gain a firm understanding of this type of coral within the hobbiest environment.

So that I clarify .. Based on what I read you writting, it sounds like you are stating the only way to raise a propogation coral farm solely around SPS is to have fish in the tank and a skimmer?

[Loverotties]

I always skim,even in a 5gal reef.

[Geoff]

two words: bacterial flock.

nearly all of the detritus you are cleaning out of the system is not really fish poo. it is bacterial flock from the break down of phosphates. this is what you want to remove. skimming is just the easiest way to do it. the only other way is siphoning. in most cases both need to be done in order to keep the phosphates low enough to keep growth at a maximum.

here is another way to look at it. the more you skimm the less light you will need to grow these corals. the more you skimm the better the colours of the corals will be also. the higher the phosphates the slower the growth, and if allowed to build up can actually kill the corals from the inside.

it would be significantly cheaper to run your system with a massive skimmer than it would be to run it without one and having to pay for the increased lighting needed to keep the corals growing. the cost in lighting equipment and electricity will quickly overcome the price of the decent skimmer.

the amount of light i need in my SPS tank now that i do not have any sand is amazing. i used to run 400w Iwasaki's on this tank. now i run low par 250's and am thinking of going down to high par 175's. this is a significant savings in power and equipment.

lately i have not been to impressed with our "experts". they have led us astray for the past 10yrs. they really have not "helped" our hobby that much.

G~