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Old 11-22-2007, 05:00 PM   #1
JandJ
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To Chaeto or not to Chaeto? Does macroalgae, for nutrient export, inhibt SPS growth?


I have started seeing information about macroalgae being bad for SPS tanks.

My system is currently running SPS dominant, but mixed reef and there is Chaeto in the sump under a light. I run the light 24/7 down there because I wanted to discourage asexual reproduction, now though I understand that ANY macroalgae in the system inhibits growth. This system has been running with the chaeto in it for about a year and a half. I do 10g water changes once a week and remove about half the chaeto every few months. It does not grow all that fast but it does appear to be the main breeding ground for mysid shrimp in my system. I assumed the tank was getting food from the mysid and various microfauna contained in the chaeto matt.

What are others thoughts on the subject?

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Old 11-22-2007, 06:49 PM   #2
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ive never heard of cheato inhibiting sps growth. Halimeda and caulerpa for sure.

get a bigger skimmer or improve your flow and overflow program to get the dirty water to your skimmer and lose it anyway. Its not needed or beneficial IMO. Many people feel it is however......thats just my opnion
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Old 11-22-2007, 06:55 PM   #3
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ive never heard of cheato inhibiting sps growth. Halimeda and caulerpa for sure.

get a bigger skimmer or improve your flow and overflow program to get the dirty water to your skimmer and lose it anyway. Its not needed or beneficial IMO. Many people feel it is however......thats just my opnion
Geoff is making that claim.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:01 PM   #4
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Geoff is making that claim.
So is Tom

Read any decent algae text for the gories, I will try and find a review article for you folks so you can read it for yourselves...
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Old 11-22-2007, 09:37 PM   #5
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This is a widespread basic accepted tenet of marine science, see the following. Actual articles were hard to find, much like looking for articles that prove that we live in an oxygen-rich atmosphere... Mechanisms are multitudinal: sometimes requiring physical contact, sometime requiring relative isolation in low current stagnant areas: as far as I know there are eight different mechanisms that are employed by algae in their competition with corals in general, some more specific to interspecie reactions than others.


Some of you may not be able to access the full articles listed below, some are only available to subscribers, but most of these liniks will at least have access to the abstracts if you use the liinks embedded here.


http://www.springerlink.com/content/n1wh2kbf2behq86q/

http://www.informaworld.com/index/713610859.pdf

http://www.springerlink.com/index/T7717P52210K7300.pdf

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=002...3E2.0.CO%3B2-S

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...22098101002660

http://www.springerlink.com/index/N4U47TR826767375.pdf

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...25326X0400356X

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps_oa/m323p107.pdf

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...68988305001149

http://www.springerlink.com/index/U0481VAN807PKNCM.pdf

http://www.cordio.org/reports/CORDIO...2.pdf#page=137

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_...number=1152024

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=088...3E2.0.CO%3B2-5

http://www.springerlink.com/index/Q1147115272MV851.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...1JR8#PPA259,M1

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...a16e379e4039f5

http://www.springerlink.com/content/q445322516rv2721/


I believe that should you read these articles that you'll get the gist of the topic on this.


HTH
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Old 11-22-2007, 09:57 PM   #6
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Tom, I neither reject or accept the claim on basis of ignorance. I am working my way through the abstracts and happened upon this: Corals exposed to Sargassum grew significantly more slowly (80% reduction) than controls, but this effect was absent when corals were caged to prevent physical contact with macroalgae.
Wouldn't this negate inhibition via macro in sump?
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Old 11-22-2007, 10:20 PM   #7
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Tom, I neither reject or accept the claim on basis of ignorance. I am working my way through the abstracts and happened upon this: Corals exposed to Sargassum grew significantly more slowly (80% reduction) than controls, but this effect was absent when corals were caged to prevent physical contact with macroalgae.
Wouldn't this negate inhibition via macro in sump?
For the Sargassum spp. and that particular coral IN THE OPEN SEA WHERE DILUTION OF THE ALLELOPATHIC SUBSTANCES WOULD BE ALMOST INFINITE, it requires direct contact. As there are eight different mechanisms employed by algae as allelopathic competitors, it will sometimes depend on the coral and the algae.

However, in a closed system where there are high population densities of the algae and the coral when compared to the sea (very few locations in the ocean have densities where algae tke up 25% of the total volume of a region), and in 185 or so USG of recirculated water, substances like this tend to accumulate, even with good skimming and carbon, to many MANY times the concentration of that found in the ocean...


And the corals often have triggering allelopathic substances that make the algae release the defenses they have (in many many times the concentration of that found in the ocean as well...)


We will find that instances of this type of competition can be multiplied many times both in terms of concentrations of triggers or toxins and in consequences of the releases of allelopathic toxins when we talk of closed systems nd the accumulations of these substances.


I'm not telling you to pull the stuff. If you feel that exporting via algal capture and harvest is in the best interest of your system of stony corals, go ahead, as most aquarists have bigger issues with exporting phosphate and/or nitrate than worrying about how their stony coral specimens are going to deal with natural competition. However, you need to find a way to deal with the accumulations of the allelopathic products of the algae if you do. Not so much an issue with octocorals or all fish only systems, but for the stonies, you've been informed... it can be the difference between surviving and thriving.


More info for an in-depth read and overview:


Algae: An introduction to Phycology, C. Van Den Hoek, D.G. Mann, and H. M. Jahns,Cambridge Univ Press, 1995, ISBN: 0-521-31687-1.

The Physiological Ecology of Seaweeds, Duncan, Mary Jo, Cambridge University Press, 1985. (sorry, ISBN is damaged on the outside of this book)

Algae, Graham, Linda E. and Wilcox, Lee W., Prentice Hall, 2000,ISBN 0-13-660333-5.
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Old 11-22-2007, 11:52 PM   #8
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Tom, thank you for a massive dose of reading to burn off a big dinner. I am still concentrating in zoanthids, I only dabble with sps, I will keep my cheato at this time. Although I would be interested to see an experiment of two tanks side by side one with cheato and one without to measure growth.
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Old 11-23-2007, 02:48 PM   #9
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Tom, thank you for a massive dose of reading to burn off a big dinner. I am still concentrating in zoanthids, I only dabble with sps, I will keep my cheato at this time. Although I would be interested to see an experiment of two tanks side by side one with cheato and one without to measure growth.


I think the first study (maybe the second one) listed does that, I would have to go back and look at the links to be sure. Remember there's a pronounced difference for alleloopathic issuese between closed systems (the effect is much more pronounced in closed systems) and the open ocean due to the ocean's dilutional effects.

I have another good paper on the topic that I had originally sent to Geoff a few month ago that I cannot now find (I've been cleaning up the study, I used to be able to find stuff, but now... ), maybe he'll post the link for it, or pull some exerpts from it for us.
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Old 11-23-2007, 03:12 PM   #10
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Key is what Tom said earlier, if there are bigger fish to fry like phosphates and nitrate then maybe removing chaeto is not the best thing.

Ultimately I think it would be cool for me to run without fuge or phosphate remover but until I put these things in it was phosphates and algae that limited growth and unfortunately even beauty.
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Old 11-23-2007, 08:10 PM   #11
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Okay, my reef has never registered any nitrates or phosphates so far, therefore I am interested in maximum growth and am asking the question about chaeto inhibiting growth.
Also, the chaeto provides an awesome place for microfauna to reproduce, which seems to be occurring in my system.
I do have immense flow going through the system and keep up with frequent water changes.
So far it looks like the answers are ambiguous, I'm going to leave the system as is since it has been doing well so far and I want to disturb as little as possible before seeing if Joel will babysit all my stuff for a month.

I will bring the chaeto with me and set the tank back up with it in it and allow the microfauna to come along for the ride and hopefully re-establish when the tank is set back up.
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