Tank questions

[OneDummHikk]

This thread lists the equipment I have so far:
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=111400

When I got the tank, I decided to go ahead and test everything I had to make sure it worked properly. The only part of it that I couldn't truly test was the skimmer. But, with plain water it did was I believe it is supposed to do. I decided to use the tank to keep my FW fish in while I redid my 55 gallon tank and let it be a test run to see what/if any problems I would run into with it. Since I have a lot more experience with FW fish than SW (which is zero), it made more sense to me to do it that way.

First question:
Heat. With the canopy on the tank, the glass lid on the tank, the return pump running, and 4 powerheads in the tank running, the temperature stays between 80-81 degrees on a digital thermometer I have. My concern is that when I add the skimmer to it, then add reef lights to it, that the temperature will get to the point where I have to start trying to cool it off. Am I being paranoid? I have a DIY idea in mind using a computer power supply and computer fans to blow air through the canopy to try to deal with the heat. It may be something I have to wait and get set up to deal with but trying to be ahead of it before it happens and at least have some ideas on how to deal with it.

One option that I have thought of with the glass is to have a piece higher up in the canopy (I have to rebuild the canopy anyway) that would protect the lights from splashing water but would let heat dissipate from the water surface.

Second question:
The overflow. The overflow is in the left rear corner of the tank (single overflow). The overflow drain itself handles the output from the return pump. It has the Durso thingie on it and I don't have the toilet flushing sound anymore. What I do have is a waterfall sound from it. Somewhere (I can't find it again) said that the 8" of lateral surface on my overflow box wasn't big enough (4 inches on 2 sides). My idea was to make a tank wide overflow (coast to coast is what I have seen it called) that is about 2 inches high, 4 inches deep, and then cut the overflow box in the tank now so that it has 48 inches to flow over (the width of the tank). Good idea or bad?

Third question:
The return. The head loss calculator on RC asks about a 90 and a 45 but doesn't ask anything about a T connection. What effect does a T connection have on head loss? With the current elbows, 45's, linear run, vertical run, the calculator is telling me 690 gph. Is that enough for a 90 gallon tank or do I need to get a different pump?

Fourth question:
The wet/dry filter. I know it isn't used with Bioballs for a reef tank. But, it simply isn't large enough to get the skimmer in it with the pump in it also (I don't know how it was setup before). So, I want to build another one. I have to rebuild the stand so I am pretty open to how I build it for access. My thoughts are to build it with a door on the end and then I can build a sump as large as the footprint of the tank (a little smaller but close). Can it get to the point where the sump is simply too large for the tank or where it is defeating itself due to size?

Fifth question:
Lighting. Can you run a BB FO tank with standard flourescent lights? I am asking so that I can go ahead and get this thing set up and at least be able to use it for fish until I can afford the rocks to convert it to a Reef tank.

Sixth question:
Copper. This is the one question that scares me the most. I have no idea if the tank has ever been treated with copper or not. I got it used and have never even spoken to the person who gave it to me (and can't now). So, I bought a Copper test kit. So far, it reads zero. If it were treated with Copper in the past, and it were to leech copper out of the silicone, would a test kit register it? It is an API brand Copper test kit.

Seventh question:
Is anybody still reading this far?

My apologies for the long post and all the questions in one. I considered starting 6 or 7 threads and thought I would be better off with it all in one place. If I screwed up, beat me over the head and tell me not to do it again

I am quite sure I have more questions but I think I have done enough damage for today.

Randy

[Hop]

Well lets see how far I can get before work

1. Take the glass lids off and remeasure. Many of us have to run fans over the sump to keep temps down. Some have to use chillers. But I have never needed a chiller.

2. The standpipe may be too low and see #3.

3. If you have a mag 12 as in your specs page, it is WAY too much... In fact, your drain couldn't handle a mag 12 wide open, so it must be a different pump... You really only need about 3-5 times the system volume through the sump, so with a 90 gallon tank, rounding up... 3-500 gallons per hour. This may help with #2.. Also you have an overflow, so making a coast to coast just doesn't seem like something you need to do, the one you have will work fine.

4. Not really, bigger is better. But it also demands bigger equipment

5. Why run a FO BB

6. Wouldn't even worry about it unless your planning a super SPS system. The copper issue with tanks is over-publicized...

7. Yup, but need to go to work

[OneDummHikk]

Originally Posted by Hop

Well lets see how far I can get before work

1. Take the glass lids off and remeasure. Many of us have to run fans over the sump to keep temps down. Some have to use chillers. But I have never needed a chiller.

The glass lid has been off most of the night. I took it off right at midnight last night to do some water testing. The temperature is 78.2 right now. That is fairly consistent with what I have observed over the last few weeks when tinkering with it to try to deal with the heat. I think I am trying to solve a problem before it happens. If I add high cost lights, I will need some kind of protection for the lights to keep them from getting messed up from splashing water. I have to rebuild the canopy anyway and had thought about putting the glass lid below the lights higher up off the tank so that the glass protects the lights but doesn't sit on top of the water. Which would let the heat dissipate from the surface of the water.

Originally Posted by Hop

2. The standpipe may be too low and see #3.

How far from the surface of the tank water should the water in the overflow be? Right now, it is about 3" from the tank surface to the overflow surface.

Originally Posted by Hop

3. If you have a mag 12 as in your specs page, it is WAY too much... In fact, your drain couldn't handle a mag 12 wide open, so it must be a different pump... You really only need about 3-5 times the system volume through the sump, so with a 90 gallon tank, rounding up... 3-500 gallons per hour. This may help with #2.. Also you have an overflow, so making a coast to coast just doesn't seem like something you need to do, the one you have will work fine.

The data plate on the back of the pump has "E160713" and then "Model 12 B Utility Pump" printed on it. When I Google for it, I get a Mag12 and the pump looks identical to the Mag12 on this page:
http://www.pondandfountain.com/pumps_danner.html
One thing I have not been able to find on the pump is a manufacturers name. The head loss calculator on RC gives me a 648 gph rating based on what I have on the return.

I suck at drawing diagrams but I hope it works. The red are 90 degree elbows. The blue is 3/4" PVC. The black is a flexible hose. The purple is a 45. The black piece is 28" long (18" circumference), the blue vertical is 43". At the top, where the two elbows and 45 are, there is barely a 1/4" between each fitting. Trying to figure that out is what made me realize they didn't ask about a T fitting. The blue vertical is actually up the back side of my tank on the outside. I want to redo it and possibly split it up to go to different parts of the tank for a different flow pattern.

Evan at 650gph, my FW love the current It can definitely blow them around at times. Ever seen a goldfish surf?

Originally Posted by Hop

4. Not really, bigger is better. But it also demands bigger equipment

I can see how it would take a bigger skimmer. More water = bigger skimmer. What else would need to be bigger? My return pump?

Originally Posted by Hop

5. Why run a FO BB

Probably me violating my first rule when I decided I wanted a SW tank:

Rule #1: Patience.

Me wanting to get it set up and running with something living in it as soon as I could. Since I posted that, I re-read the chromis thread and it finally dawned on me that what I wanted - damsels - were chromis and that I couldn't have a school of them without having more problems than I wanted to deal with.

Originally Posted by Hop

6. Wouldn't even worry about it unless your planning a super SPS system. The copper issue with tanks is over-publicized...

To begin with, no. Eventually, yes. I have a picture in my head of what I want it to look like but I can't explain it. And not even sure what all the critters are that I want. Have to get my book out and figure it out soon though. Look through, find a christmas list, post it and see how many are no-nos for me.

Originally Posted by Hop

7. Yup, but need to go to work

[tims]

Morning Randy.

#1 agree, remove the glass top. no need for it. as long as the lights are up to 10 inches away you will not have any problems

#2 also agree. the stand pipe is always a hard thing to get "just right" mine is maybe 1 inch under the water line if that

#3 check to make sure it is a mag 12, if so that might be yoru problem with the draining. too much water and not enough air escaping.

#4 agian i agree, the sump size adds to the total amount of water volume, this will help stabilize the system more. One thing you can look at ,is to mod the now sump ( wet/dry) adding a bulk head and loking to see if you can plumb the skimmer to the sump.

#5 yes fish dont need to have and special lighting, the normal output lighting ( N.O.) is fine.
question-- will substrate be used when you go reef? if so then making a lift system now and having it in place already will be a good idea.

#6 dont think youwilhave much of a problem, if you want to , wash the tank out a few times with vinegar and water, this will help. was the tank a fresh watrer tank before?

#7 yup.. since i did you get to answer the following hhehehe

7a are you healed up from waking your wife up a 4a m to get the tank?
7b you might think about a CLS ( closed loop system) your corals will love you for it later on.
7c remembber not to use a fish to start the cycle of the system. a piece of raw un cooked shrimp will do the same thing, a cup od ammonia willalso do that..

having everything in one thread is good to look back on.!
have a great weekend!

[tims]

randy, if possible dont use the 90's try to cget a smoother turn.

[OneDummHikk]

Morning Tim.

#1) Knowing that 10 inches up gives me a safety margin, I can include that in the new canopy I have to build for it.

#2) I will tinker with it some this afternoon and tomorrow, messing with the height and see if I can get the noise down to a level where I don't have to turn my tv all the way up to hear it.

#3) I am fairly sure it is a mag 12. Everything I find when Googling for it implies it is a mag 12.

#4)My thinking with the sump is that I have enough 1/2" acrylic to build one that is bigger than what I have and that would give me enoug room in the sump to put the skimmer in there without having to modify it. Not sure I know enough to start modifying skimmers yet.

#5) Knowing fish can live with my 20 dollar Home Depot lights makes me feel better
Substrate? Yes. I want substrate. I have read the BB vs DSB threads and just prefer the look of a DSB tank. The extra work involved isn't a big issue since I am at home 24/7 and doing maintenance will actually give me something to do. I read the DIY threads on rock lifts and have it saved for reference. Already have the acrylic, just need to order the rods or find some scraps locally if I can find where to get them locally.

#6) I don't think I will have a copper problem either. Not now anyway. With 3 tests telling me no copper and two people here telling me not to worry as much about it, I think I will just let it rest.

#7a) It wasn't too bad after I explained what it would have cost me to buy it instead of going to get it for free. I think it actually ended up costing me more in the end though. "Since you didn't have to pay for the tank stuff, you can buy me......."

#7b) The CLS is something I want to do. I wondered if I could do it through the bottom of a coast-to-coast and not have to drill the tank. Not sure how well it would work though. Have to pull the water out of the tank and then pump it back into the tank.

#7c) Good point. In doing FW fish, I have learned to do it fishless. The only thing I hate about the ammonia is smelling it. Yuck!

You have a great weekend also.

[OneDummHikk]

Originally Posted by tims

randy, if possible dont use the 90's try to cget a smoother turn.

I will work on that this weekend as well. I wanted to re-do it anyway.

[tims]

#2) I will tinker with it some this afternoon and tomorrow, messing with the height and see if I can get the noise down to a level where I don't have to turn my tv all the way up to hear it.

you might also look at the end piping. if that actually goes in to water it self, you will cut the "sounds" down.

#3) I am fairly sure it is a mag 12. Everything I find when Googling for it implies it is a mag 12

i belive it is, if you are going ot do a CLS, you can use that for it. the mag 12 does not have to be in water. this will actually cause some extra heat to the system. look at a mag 7. but having a better stronger pump for the cls is ideal. tose will cost a bit more in the end but worth it. look at the sequence pumps.

"Since you didn't have to pay for the tank stuff, you can buy me......."

#7b) The CLS is something I want to do. I wondered if I could do it through the bottom of a coast-to-coast and not have to drill the tank. Not sure how well it would work though. Have to pull the water out of the tank and then pump it back into the tank.

sorta goes with the mag 12 part...
if you dont want to drill the back of the tank. you cna do a up and over CLS . this is also a small part of the larger pump.

[Hop]

I've ran my NO flo lighting at just a few inches over the water and never had an issue. Right now my VHO bulbs are about 3" off the water surface and my MH are 8-10" from the water surface... Not that I'm doing it right, just saying that NO bulbs can be much closer

[OneDummHikk]

Originally Posted by tims

you might also look at the end piping. if that actually goes in to water it self, you will cut the "sounds" down.

It does. Turns back down into the water about a half an inch. The water noise I am getting isn't from the water going into the drain, it is from the waterfall that is falling over the side of the overflow box itself. One thing I left out of my, umm, "expert" drawing was the ball valve. It is right above the elbow at the end of the curve. I may end up having to turn the flow down some. The idea behind the coast-to-coast was that right now, at 650 gph, that 650 gallons is going over 8" of overflow wall. If I make it 48" wide, it isn't going to change the flow, but it will change the speed of the water over any given place in the drain. That lower speed will allow it to sheet down the wall better and kill a lot of my "waterfall" noise. Or it does in my head. But then again, a lot of things work in my head that don't work in reality.

Originally Posted by tims

i belive it is, if you are going ot do a CLS, you can use that for it. the mag 12 does not have to be in water. this will actually cause some extra heat to the system. look at a mag 7. but having a better stronger pump for the cls is ideal. tose will cost a bit more in the end but worth it. look at the sequence pumps.

That was actually a different thought I had before when I wasn't sure if I was having enough flow now. Getting a different return pump for the sump and using the pump I have now for a CLS. But, do I need that kind of flow? If I have a mag12 running now, at 650 gph, and then 4 powerheads (that I am not sure of the gph on), will a CLS actually cause too much flow and start blowing things around?

Originally Posted by tims

sorta goes with the mag 12 part...
if you dont want to drill the back of the tank. you cna do a up and over CLS . this is also a small part of the larger pump.

That may be what I end up trying with it. If nothing else, I can always remove it if it gets to be too big a problem.

Thanks again.

[OneDummHikk]

Originally Posted by Hop

I've ran my NO flo lighting at just a few inches over the water and never had an issue. Right now my VHO bulbs are about 3" off the water surface and my MH are 8-10" from the water surface... Not that I'm doing it right, just saying that NO bulbs can be much closer

I kinda figured as much. Right now, my NO lights are 4 1/2" from the water surface. It is 8" from the water to the bottom of the top of the canopy. I am going to have to rebuild the canopy anyway, and raising it up another 12 inches isn't a problem. What I want to try to avoid is building a new canopy, using NO lights, and then a year or so down the road having to rebuild it again to make it high enough to get the lights away from the water.

[wyliecoyote]

remove the glass tops and run fans if you need to. i don't think you can have a sump that is too big. run carbon and any copper that is leached will be removed. obviously i skipped some, but those are the answers i could come up with while i'm hung over and don't want to strain my brain.

[OneDummHikk]

Originally Posted by OneDummHikk

That was actually a different thought I had before when I wasn't sure if I was having enough flow now. Getting a different return pump for the sump and using the pump I have now for a CLS. But, do I need that kind of flow? If I have a mag12 running now, at 650 gph, and then 4 powerheads (that I am not sure of the gph on), will a CLS actually cause too much flow and start blowing things around?

OK, don't ask me why, but it crossed my mind in the middle of a tornado warning induced rain storm on a bridge about 150 feet in the air with 60mph cross winds. If I go with a mag7 on the return, then it reduces the flow through the filter. And then the mag12 would be on the CLS, which would cause flow in the tank but not through the filter.

The head loss calculator says I would have less head loss with a gate valve than a ball valve. I would prefer the gate valve as it gives me more fine tune control over the flow.

If I remove the mag12 from the sump, install a bulkhead, put the pump outside, I could lose a 90 in the return. Then change all the 90s to double 45's and the head loss calculator says it will be 808 gph. Poor sand. Will look like a sand storm in there. And that is without a CLS.

It doesn't help that I have been up since 4:00 pm yesterday and it is going on 7:30 pm. If I stay up another 18-20 hours I will figure this completely out and then totally forget it while I sleep for a week to catch up.

I hate it when I have ideas in my head and my fingers can't keep up with my brain trying to type them. And I can type 100wpm when motivated. Sheesh.

OK, its bedtime. I think if I sit in my LazyBoy I will be asleep before Don Garlits can cross the finish line in a top fuel dragster. I really have to stop doing this to myself.

It's ok, I will blame it on the 4am coffee and Tims for making me think about it in a rainstorm

[OneDummHikk]

Originally Posted by wyliecoyote

remove the glass tops and run fans if you need to. i don't think you can have a sump that is too big. run carbon and any copper that is leached will be removed. obviously i skipped some, but those are the answers i could come up with while i'm hung over and don't want to strain my brain.

It helped, even if nothing more than to give me a different opinion on it. I think the glass is gone for a while. New high canopy with raised glass and built in fans.

Anybody know where I can get a digital tester? I saw one at a Club meeting today that was a digital PH meter. Do they make one that test the other things in a tank?

I really do have to stop doing this and go to bed.

Night TRT. When I wake, watch out!

[OneDummHikk]

If you on yourself, do the fish find it funny?

Project list for tomorrow:

1) Remake the overflow stand pipe to make it 4" taller.
2) Replumb the return. I think moving the pump externally will work for now. It will give me room inside the sump to put my skimmer. It will also remove a 90 from the return system.

3) Retest the drain/return system.
4) Pick up the fish that got surfed out of the tank from increased flow.
5) Explain to my wife that things like that are normal when you have a saltwater tank.
6) Hide the URL to this site from my wife so she won't find out how untrue 5 is
7) Figure out why I think those smilie things are so amusing to me.

OK, night for real this time TRT.