Sump Setup Qs?

[balakoth]

Ok heres the deal. Ive decided not to upgrade for quiet awhile so Im going to supe up my 50 Gallon like no tomorrow and get this reefing thing down before I try and make a big leap into a bigger tank.

Right now I am planning out a Sump/Refugium, Closed Loop System and basically have my MH and cooling system already in teh works.


A few questions:

Because this is a 50 Gallon Show, I have very limited room under my Stand and would like to use AT LEAST a 20 Gallon Sump.

A) Would a Refugium as part of the Sump work for what im doing? Or is it more efficent to plumb an external 10 gallon and use it for Macro and a DSB in that. Or rather a DSB in the sump (more room and other seem to like this setup) and the macro and whatever else in the refugium.


B) What suggestions can you give to setup a Sump that is not under the stand? I live in an apartment so putting it below in the basement or in the wall isnt an option, not to mention finding a nice cabinent to match my stand I have yet to had the luck of doing. (Mind you I am pretty shotty at woodworking and im surprised my canopy came out as **** good as it did.)


While I would just LOVE my Metal Halides, I feel that the benefit of putting my Sump and Refugium for my Tank and its Inhabitants would be more beneficial, so therefore having to put off my light upgrade for a few more months. (I have this silly Pistol Shrimp who is not going to leave my Sandbed alone so the display isnt going to be much help for denitrication and the likes.)

oh yes I will be putting in a new Southbay (Euroreef copy CS6-2 equiv) Skimmer and tossin the CPR.. Will this help my nitrates or just general water quality?

Please any suggestions, Tips, Comments would help greatly.

Thanks in advance. Joe

[jegel]

The first thing I would do is figure out the size the sump is going to be. I have an 80 gallon tank (sitting empty these days) and the biggest sump I could get is 20 gallons. This is probably because I made the stand myself and designed it low. With a 20 gallon sump I don't have much room left after I have my skimmer, heater(s), return pump, thermometer, and top off foat switch. With all this stuff in the sump at makes room for a refugium very minimal. As I'm planning to set this tank back up I'm going to have about a 10 gallon refugium up behind the tank with water spilling over into the main tank.

[beach bum]

You could just put a second smaller tank next to the main tank to act as the refugium like you already mentioned, then you could have two kinds of displays!!

About the skimmer, you might want to find a model you can run externally rather that using valuable sump room that you can use for a refugium. Ask Jeff at Exotic Fish if he has the fittings to run the skimmer that way. I heard that he was making a model with a different type of water return that would make it work externally. But I could be wrong...

[Doug1]

With a 50 g tank, and a decent refugeium setup do you really need a super skimmer or will it be counter productive?

[balakoth]

Not sure Doug, Id like more input on that from someone though. Right now I don't feel the CPR is doing that great of a job. If thats the case Ill probably down step to the CS6-1 Model. Otherwise could it really hurt?

Beach, Jeff is now selling the Southbays with a Gatevalve I believe so you can run them externally and control the flow better. Apparently their footprint is suppose to be smaller than the euroreefs as well.

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is how the sump looks so I figured the Skimmer and return pump would fit nicely in the baffled section giving me room still in main portion to put the DSB or whatever.


I suppose i could put the refugium next to the tank, but I still need somewhere to stick a sump at the demensions of 30x16x16 (I think thats what they were )

Edit: Ok nevermind my Line art didnt come out LOL

- joe

[beach bum]

That is the hard part about making large changes to a tank that is already setup. Much easier to fit everything together before you are stuck with limiting equipment. But then, you already know that!

I didn't know you already had a CPR. Why not stick with that for now till you upgrade the tank? Just adding the sump/refugium will be great for the system. If you haven't already upgraded the pump on the CPR, why not try that?

fwiw

[cyberchef]

Originally posted by Doug1
With a 50 g tank, and a decent refugeium setup do you really need a super skimmer or will it be counter productive?

I know you've been working on building up your sand bed and I believe you have it around 4-5 inches at least in some parts of the tank. I have a plenum system and even tho a few people have been telling me to run my skimmer for 24/7 due to a cyano problem I decided to cut it's run time back after reading a few posts/threads from Chris, Galleon. I currently have it back to 7 hours per day and my cyano problem is starting to clear up. Since this is the only major change to my system in the past 4 months (been on 7 hours for about 1 week now) I hoestly feel that it is, at least in part, responsible for the decrease in cyano. I know that cyano can be caused by many reasons, one of the most common blames is overfeeding/excessive nutrients, yet I feed lightly, skimmed 24/7 and the more things I tried to get rid of it such as water changes only seemed to make it grow more. Doing all of the right things just didn't seem to be working for my setup. I read chris's posts/threads and what was stated made sense to me, even tho my plenum is not quite correct (I need to cover the bottom 4-5 inches of the glass to keep the light out), so I decided to give it a try, figured I had nothing to loose. Within 2-3 days there was almost no cyano left on the SB and what was on the rocks is slowly getting less and less. I still syphon/baste it off of the rocks but it doesn't come back as quickly and definately not as much each time now. I guess I need to get to the point... lol

You might find that with a decent refugium and the deep SB that the skimming won't be necessary and possibly the cause of problems. While I can't guarantee that cutting the skimmer back was the solution for me it definately seems to be working so far. It's also the only thing I'm doing at the moment to try and combat the cyano, I've given up on all of the other, most common, recomended solutions for cyano. I'm going to give the plenum a chance to do what it's supposed to and see if it really will work. I plan on getting some black pieces of acrylic, cut to size, to cover the bottom 4-5 inches of the SB in the next week or so. Don't know if my post helps you or not, but maybe...

[balakoth]

Well since i wish to add the SUmp and Refug, the CPR would need to come off the back of my tank as i would be putting a Hang on Overlfow in its place. Ive had people recomend just putting the CPR in the sump, but with that increased water capacity I feel I would like to be reassured I am skimming efficently with a larger skimmer.

I plan to turn this into a heavy SPS tank for quiet sometime, so I dont really feel like skimping.

Cyber, yeah ive tried increasing my sandbed, and its settled alot over places so Im back down to 3 - 3 1/2 inches and only 4 MAX in some parts in the back and where my pistol shrimp is making his home. THis is probably going to even out over time though taking away what I had originally planned. So in essence I added more sand for my shrimp to push around and make a mess lol.


I think we've actually decided to (Oh yes this is going to be fun) Move my tank over a little bit (about a foot) so I can foot in a book case / cabinent next to the stand. There i will house my Reefing Books, Supplies and under neight the 20 Gallon ACryllic Sump, and the refug will be in the stand under the tank.

With the whole DSB issue, because some of youu mentioned i might have limited space in my Sump, would it be best to just put a DSB in the refug with my mass of Macro Algaes? Or would a 6 inch DSB in both the Refug and SUmp be alright? The LFS uses the same sump I believe in their 75 gallon setups and it houses their Euroreefs and a Sandbed very nicely.


While the CPR was a great Start I believe, I just dont like how difficult it is to CLean it and keep it clean.

I talked in the past about upgrading to a larger tank, but as you can all probably see now. Ive flopped that idea for quiet sometime until I find permanent housing and not an apartment or condo (Id hate to have to move a 150 around a few times hehe)


As far as Components go now. Since ive never done this and boy Im a newbie at Plumbing. COuld I grab some recomendations on Submersable pumps (Mag, Iwaki, GenX?) and what typically is the PVC size used for adequet flow. I sort of understand Gate Valves and the like but again not very familar with it all. I will be using the LIfereef 700 GPH Hang on overflow model unless of course there is a better way to do an overflow in a glass tank WITHOUT drilling.

Keep the critisim (Constructive as you guys have always been and i appreciate that) suggestions and comments coming. I Dont mind hearing the hard truth if its going to help me in the end.



- Joe

[Doug1]

I think what we are trying to say is go ahead and set up your sump and fuge , put the CPR on the sump, then give it time to get established. See how that works out before spending more $$$$$ on a bigger skimmer

[beach bum]

Sounds like you have a good vision of this, so that's awesome. I seem to always picture sumps as just empty tanks or tubs, cuz I'm cheap and that's all I use! But if you have a baffled/sectioned sump that will accomodate a skimmer, return pump, and DSB, definitely do it.

I've never had a problem with u-tube overflows, though my roommate did have problems with bubbles gathering in his, which was a concern. I think it is all about keeping maximum flow in the overflow. So, on that note, I would look for a pump pressure rated for 700gph at however many ft. of head you have on the return line. A simple ball valve will let you tone it down some/fine tune the flow if you need to. BTW, have you ever looked into the sea-swirls? I really like mine.

Once I tried putting my remora in the sump, but man was it noisy. I switched it around rather than trying to rig something on the overflow that would carry the water all the way down to the sump's water level to eliminate the splashing noise.

I also think that people overestimate sometimes on the amount of water their system actually holds. Even with the 50 gallon sump on my 100, it really only adds about 20-25 extra gallons to the total, and with a 20g sump I imagine it will only add in the neighborhood of 10g extra, not a whole lot.

fwiw, hth

[cyberchef]

Originally posted by Doug1
I think what we are trying to say is go ahead and set up your sump and fuge , put the CPR on the sump, then give it time to get established. See how that works out before spending more $$$$$ on a bigger skimmer

I have to agree with Doug. Get your refugium and sump set up and then stick with the CPR unit, unless you hate it enough so that you HAVE to replace it (save the money, you can always replace it later).

I have a CPR wet/dry sump, rated for 110 Gallons (my system has about 100 gallons), LR instead of bio bale, skimmer is built into the sump and it is far more skimmer than I need for my set up. Turning my skimmer down to 7 hours a day and watching my cyano disappear is proving that. Every system is different, what works for one person may not work for someone else, but try what you have with the mods you are planning (sump/refugium) and see how that works before you start dumping a lot of money on a bigger skimmer that you may not need or that you may find is far too much skimmer once you have the sump/refugium going.

[balakoth]

The reason I wanted to go with the bigger skimmer is that its only 50 bucks more than what my CPR was. Selling my CPR (I know tons of Nano Reefers starting up that would love one) would basically compenstate for the money I would spend on the bigger skimmer so I wouldnt really be losing to much (Though its obviously apparent how my tank setup has been going I didnt care in the first place LOL). And eventually Im sure i could use it on a bigger tank if need be.

I think really I Just hate my CPR. I thought it was a nifty little skimmer at first, but now Im just starting to despise it.

Hey beach bum I know what you mean, ive seriously concidered the DIY method. For some God awfull reason this LFS in my area wants to sell me a Acryllic 20 Gallon Sump for the EXACT same price they would sell me an Acryllic 55 Gallon Reef Ready. Is it just me or does that seem severely messed up.


BTW, I looked into the LIfereef Prefilter Overflow boxes and Its looking like a 4 month wait. Is there any comparable overflow boxes out there that work just as well WITHOUT a pump? HOB types?

Doug, I dont want all my responses to sound like Im ignoring all your guy's advice, its just that Ive saved up and really wanted to make this modifcation since I learned and saw some of the great setups out there. Mostly im sceptical about the CPR in teh sump because many of those who use the Urchin and or have modified their remora to use in the Sump changed it out within months.

Not sure if any of you have used a CPR BakPak that have current larger sump skimmer setups, but now that ive had a chance to see several different styles of Skimmers in action, I feel I cheated my tank out of some better water quality.

Im sure none of you care how I blow my wallet But either way I will be setting up the Sump Refugium, and take it from there with the skimmer. a Sump nonetheless opens me up to so many more cool options though which Im looking forward too (Autotopoff, Kalk/Calcium Reactor, ect)


As for seaswirls, they seemed pretty large, especially the return pipe that rotates seems like it sticks out pretty far. I only have 14 inches to work with front to back are they as big as they appear in the photographs?


Sorry to ramble on and on... But thanks for dealing with my stubborness..

[balakoth]

Ok ive been doing some research and reading on the whole Skimmer issue. When doug brought up that a bigger skimmer might be counter productive I had to do some reading.

From the responses I got from various Ecologists, RC, Reefs, and a few magazines. They dont feel overskimming is much of a possibility. While others do. It makes sense that when your Skimmer stops producing a foam that is being collected in the Skim cup, it is under the threshold and therefore can no longer collect organic waste. Once it has built up again it will resume its normal operaiton and start pulling Disolved Organics from the water.


Now heres another question, if I did go with a larger skimmer, It would seem I could go back to feeding at a more regular basis (Rather than 3 times a week) which in turn would make my corals and fish happier. Also wouild this allow me to push up my bioload maybe a little bit more? I current have a foxface, algae blenny, gobie, and a maroon clown. I would like to add one more interesting fish to the scenario.

Also im still curious. Does Skimming help remove nitrates from the water column? Or is it completely non related? IE: UNderskimming might show signs of high Nitrates and other factors such as Ammonia?


Thanks again

[Jimbo]

Hi, I only clean my skiimmer every couple of weeks, seems to work better dirty, seems keeping a sticky head on the skimmer allows it to remove more organics Here's some pics of my sump and refuguim under my tank (40g) I now dump the skimmer output into the refugium and then a bulk head fitting allows the refugium to drain back into sump. Having sand in your sump may not be a good idea, sand in the works ect...

[balakoth]

Thanks for hte pic Jimbo. Could you clarify why you think a Sand sump would not be a good idea? Of coures I get mixed reviews left and right on the whole issue. Whts yours?


joe