Sump/Refugium

Urabggr · 01-16-2005, 09:57 AM

Hello, currently I have a 30g reef tank with just an Emperor 280 and an AquaC Remora skimmer. In around six months, I am planning on completely upgrading to a 75g with a sump/refugium. As I was thinking, it came to me that I might as well get the sump set up on my 30g now. First, I was researching DIY sump/refugiums (i'll say S/R's for now just because I don't feel like typing it over and over...). But then I thought about a few of my previous projects and became a little more interested in just buying a S/R. Is it acceptable to buy a commercialy made S/R, because it seems like that is somewhat unpopular (probably because of the price... they're kinda expensive from what i've seen). Also, would it be ok to maybe run my Emperor with the S/R... maybe even in the S/R? I have been so happy with the Emperor that I think it combined with a S/R would be a very good combo. Or maybe instead of the Emperor, how about a canister filter (my only question with these is that they seem to have a very low GPH rate, is this ok)? Here's a few of the S/R's that i've been looking at:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...C&N=2004+22778
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...4+22778+113565
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...C&N=2004+22778

and here's some canister filters:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...4+22778+113565
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...4+22777+113565
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...C&N=2004+22777

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

tims · 01-16-2005, 10:10 AM

hi,
i use the magnum canaster filter to run carbon and help polish the water.So YES running an extra filter ( as long as you change hte media offten) will not cause too much problems and add to the over all flow of the tank.
A lot of us do the DYI S/R because of the cost and maybe the space of where it goes.some of the store bought ones are very compact and hooking a skimmer to them may not be easy. the ones with the bio balls in a full reef tank may have some problems. that is always an on going dissucion..
even if the canaster is only rated at 300 or 350 gph that will still help. if you do get a canaster filter make sure you buy quick disconnects!! they should have shut offs on each side of the disconnects..makes life a heck of a lot easier!.
HTH.

Urabggr · 01-16-2005, 12:36 PM

Thanks for the resppnse Tims. I was thinking about he bio-balls issue and wondered if replacing them with live rock is a possiblity? Is there anything else that would be beneficial that I could replace them with? Also, of the sumps and/or canister filters that I listed, which are the "best?" If you know of a good one that isn't listed, tell me about it! Oh... one more thing... In all of the sumps, after the area with bio-balls, there is an open area... i'm guessing this is the refugium area?

tims · 01-16-2005, 01:17 PM

hi,
each of the sumps shown are just sumps.. the open area is the gas exchange and settling area. I guess you could make it into a refuge but not very good..
as far as replacing the Bio balls with LR . that is a very good idea. they would need to be covered with water though.
i used the magnum canaster filter, but each of those look pretty good for and "extra".

afoum12 · 01-16-2005, 02:38 PM

Ever thought of making your 30 the sump for your 75. im pretty sure it be cheaper and would make a much better fuge. Just a suggestion if your looking to save some cash.

Urabggr · 01-16-2005, 03:03 PM

Yeah, I did consider making my 30 a S/R, but as I said... I'm not really the best with those kind of projects (yet at least). Also, I don't really want something quite so big... I was thinking of just buying a 15-20g tank if I were to even do it myself. If anyone has any kind of fool-proof plan for a S/R out of a 15-20g tank, please let me know, I would still love to save a lot of money by doing that. Also, it seems that nobody sells a S/R. All I can find is either a sump or a refugium. Since I was wrong about the big space in all of the sumps being a refugium, does anyone know where I can find a good S/R? Thanks, and sorry for the very large amount of questions... I just want to make sure I don't make any mistakes.

tims · 01-16-2005, 03:32 PM

the only thing to be sorry about is not asking ...

try looking in the DYI section here.
even using a 20 H or Long can be done. Egg crate is very cheap and you can get everything other than the pump from your local Home enter.. you can play with the baffles ( how many you want . were to place them ( high/low)), will the refuge area be sand? or just a settling area.the flow going to it may have to be cut down some.i would think.

tims · 01-16-2005, 03:36 PM

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f65/

here is the link into the archives for sumps..

Doug1 · 01-16-2005, 03:53 PM

Since you have priced ready made wet/dry sumps you know they arent cheap, esp when you consider that you are paying for bioballs and such, something you dont need for a well setup reef tank.
Are you getting a reef ready tank, that is one that has the overflow built into it already. I really recommend you go that route if you are set on having a sump. That eliminates the hangon overflow box like the wet/dry setups you linked to.

Before getting to deep into this project, I strongly advise you to think this out, what kind of reef environment you want to simulate, what kinds of critters you have to have and design the tank around that. While some people have success with a mixed species system noit all reef creatures thrive in the same areas of a reef, so researching habitat and needs, then building the system(ie waterflow,lighting,skimming, etc) around it gives you abetter chance for success with fewer problems.
Personally I would recycle the 30 as a sump and spend the saved $$$$$ on a decent skimmer, HTH Enjoy

Urabggr · 01-16-2005, 03:58 PM

After doing a little more research, I have begun to think about just a large refugium with a (few) canister and/or power filter(s), and of course the skimmer, etc. To me, this method seems just as good as a sump because it still adds plenty of water volume, allows for good mechanical, biological, and chemical filtration, and when I upgrade to the 75, the 30 can become the refugium (still no sump) with not much work at all. Is an actual sump that important, or can I just have the entire thing be a refugium? Thanks again for all the help guys!

Doug1 · 01-16-2005, 05:49 PM

A refugium is by definition a seperate area that allows a safe area for some critters to breed without direct predation. Early versions were slow flow, above tank with tank water pumped in and gravity draining the fuge into the tank so that the zooplankton wouldnt be shredded in a powerhead or pump.
Somewhere along the line caulerpa and other macro algaes gained favor as a way to export nitrates and phosphate compounds, and the term refugium or its abbreviations came to include the algae filters as well.
A sump is a container below the display tank that allows more water capacity and a place to hide unsightly equipment. Usually allow the use of much larger and efficient skimmers than the typical hang on back (HOB) units. Sumps that feature algae filters areas are not uncommon but i don't consider them refugiums in the strict sense of the word. Hang on filters and canister filters both share a common shortcoming, in that they trap detritous and hold it in the water column where it decomposes and is acted on by bacteria to break it down into less toxic compounds. The canisters can be of value for occasional filtration , esp after blowing the live rock off with a powerhead or baster, but I think they are too high maint to run all the time. An empty Hang on back filter can help water movement and give you a place to put carbon if needed, but personally on my 75 I didnt see a heck of a lot of water movement from my big Aquaclear filter.
The setup you last outlined would prolly function as a lagoonal system and support soft corals OK , then again depending on the lighting you choose.
Giving the amount of money needed to setup and maintain a reef tank, and the cost of equipment, it makes good sense to plan out carefully in advance. Without clear goals the cost in $$$$$$ and animals is higher than need be and every change or upgrade always cost more than you thought.

Urabggr · 01-16-2005, 06:01 PM

Thanks for the imput Doug! Just curious, what are the benefits of a sump (like this, for example: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...C&N=2004+22778) compared to a refugium (like this: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...&N=2004+113080)? All I can really see is that the sump has the bio-balls and things like a filtering sponge, which would be replaced with a power/canister filter in my idea. If bio-balls aren't used for reefs, then what really makes the "sump" better than the "refugium?"

tims · 01-16-2005, 06:53 PM

your asking the difference between apples and oranges....

a sump ( in my mind) is a area that gives you room for extra stuff like your skimmer, heater, ca reactor..and also expands the amount of water you have..i.e. 75 gallon reef tank + 30 gallon sump = 105 +- gallons of salt water.most likely about 90 gallons once you add rock.this will also help with gas exchange. you can also add carbon ( in a bad ) to a sump.
a refuge in the sense Doug talked about.. a safe haven for breeding or the more fragile buggers in the tank. Some have added macro alga to them.

with a refuge you do have the extra amonut of water , but ...it is treated as a extention of the tank itself. usally has a substrate and requires light.

Urabggr · 01-16-2005, 07:05 PM

Ah... I think I'm beginning to get it. So my refugium idea (with the heater and filter, etc. in it) is really a S/R, right? Again, I'm really sorry for my ignorance... I'm used to just a normal HOT power filter, and once, no filter at all (was at a marine bio camp in the keys... we had tanks that were hooked up directly to the ocean)

Doug1 · 01-16-2005, 07:17 PM

Bare Bottom tanks are making inroads now, so sand, LOTS of water movement and really powerful skimmers, these seem especially suited for hermatypical reefcrest corals(sps)
Not saying there is anyone right or wrong way, but most differing methods of keeping a reef tank have pros and cons. Some methods suit some species better than others, thats why I keep harping on pick animals and design the system to meet there needs