Sump construction

[Boxster]

im a new reefer and im planning the construction of my sump for a 72gal bowfront RR. i bought my 20gal L yesterday and just barely got it in my oceanic stand, but it does fit. my Euro-reef skimmer will be shipped this week. so how does this sound?
4 chambers 4 baffles, first chamber for overflow line from tank. second for skimmer, third for refugium with sand and LR. fourth for 9 or 12 mag return(which size is better for this tank?
i may need to switch to 3 chambers with the skimmer and return pump in the third if i have issues with avaliable space in the 20 L. i have read that the skimmer will remove some of the benefits of the refugium if positioned behind. so that is why im going to try for the first configuration.
any tips or advice is apprieciated, thanks in advance

boxster

[tankgirl2]

I think the skimmer should come after the fuge.
The skimmer removes nutrients that the macroalgae in the fuge eats. If you're using the fuge as an algal scrubber, you want the macroalgae to out-compete the micro algae in the tank - so you want the algae in the fuge to get first shot at the nutrients in the tank.

If the fuge comes first, the algae gets the first shot at nutrients, then the skimmer strips out organics, putting out "cleaner" water to go back to the tank. That 'cleaner' water has less nutrients for the microalgae in the tank.

[Boxster]

that makes sence to me and I'll be able to put the return pump and skimmer together leaving me a larger refue. will i need to provide light in the refuge?

thanks tankgirl

[tankgirl2]

Hi Boxster,
Yeah, if you want macroalgae to grow, you'll need some light down there. A lot of people run the fuge lights on an opposite photoperiod to the tank lighting. Others run their fuge lights 24/7. If you use Caulerpa for your macroalgae and it can "go sexual" (basically die off), releasing all the phosphates back in your tank, so choice of macroalgae can be important to your fuge lighting schedule. HTH

[T_Nuge]

Personally I would put the fuge after the skimmer. That way you won't skim out any 'pods that may make there way back to your tank. Your macroalgae is going to grow no matter where it is in relation to your skimmer and you don't really care what exports your nutrients as long as they get out of the system. If your skimmer is first and gets most the stuff and your macro glows a little slower, no biggie, easy to clean your skimmer cup. And if a few more 'pods and other beneficial 'things' make their way to your display tank then great.
Just my take.

Trent

[tankgirl2]

Yeah, That's a good point, Trent! Especially if Boxster wants to keep wrasses and isn't going to have much LR in his tank? Hmmm...

[Geoff]

why would pods go into the display? this is a huge misconception. pods stay close to the LR. they do not travel far from bottom. there is no way a fuge of that size would supply enough pods to a display for food. pods do not go, oooh look at the pretty pump, lets see where it goes.

G~

[Jimbo]

Although adult pods (anthropods) don't move much depending on the species they can produce floating or swimming (nauplii stage). So juveniles do make it to the main tank probally in large numbers. I've also seen many swimming types in my refugium.

It probally dosn't make much difference where to put the skimmer but before the refugium would probally be the best for a couple of reasons. One the skimmer removes from the system organic wastes, something that algea would not directly remove until it breaks down. Algea's good for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate removal. Second reason would be for damaging/removing pods.

[kwjones]

You could go three chambers and split off of the drain line from the tank. 1st chamber is the skimmer followed by baffles, the 2nd middle chamber is the pump return and the 3rd chamber as the refugium.

Put a ball valve on the line that feeds the refugium to control the flow going into it, don't put any restrictions on the part that goes into the skimmer section. Here's a picture of my old design.

[kwjones]

The only thing I did different....

I put a 90 on the bottom going to the refugium and pointed the Tee towards the front of the sump, added another 90 off of the Tee pointing down. Oh..and I put in union fittings to make assembly and disassemby easer for cleaning.

[Boxster]

Hey KWJ
ive seen this configuration several places. I do plan on using plenty of LR in my tank. couple questions if you dont mind. How many gallons is you sump? how tall are your baffles in realationship to each other. how many inches from the bottum of the sump do you run the overflow line from the tank? im assuming the flow to the fuge from the T is adaquate especially if you want to controll it with a ball valve? and lastly this is for anyone out there, part of my confusion about sump fuge config is that i dont completely understand all of the "critters" you guys put in the fuge. some people grow mangroves? is there a web site or advice i could get about what types of critters i would want and the benefits they provide

thanks
you guys are great help
Boxster

[kwjones]

Originally posted by Boxster
Hey KWJ
ive seen this configuration several places. I do plan on using plenty of LR in my tank. couple questions if you dont mind. How many gallons is you sump? how tall are your baffles in realationship to each other. how many inches from the bottum of the sump do you run the overflow line from the tank? im assuming the flow to the fuge from the T is adaquate especially if you want to controll it with a ball valve? and lastly this is for anyone out there, part of my confusion about sump fuge config is that i dont completely understand all of the "critters" you guys put in the fuge. some people grow mangroves? is there a web site or advice i could get about what types of critters i would want and the benefits they provide

thanks
you guys are great help
Boxster

Let's see....
The sump is a 29 gallon AGA. I was going to use a 30, but decided I didn't want to give up all the storage space in the cabinet.

Actually, here's a link that kind of shows the dimensions and progression of the sump planning with a few pics of the construction. I finally got all the plumbing done on it last week and need to water test the entire set up and take plenty of pics along the way.

Instead of running a T to my fuge I put an elbow below the T and ran that to my fuge. I wanted to have all the flow going to the fuge first and I wanted to control how much flow with the ball valve. Once the pipe to the fuge fills up, it backs up to the "T" which dumps into the baffle section with un-restricted flow.

I've heard that the pipes going into the sump shouldn't be more than 2" below the water line or it will create too much back pressure in the overflow on you display tank, so I'm planning for 2 to 3" of pipe below the water surface.

If my math is right, my sump will won't overflow the display tank if the overflow gets clogged, and my display tank won't overflow the sump if the power goes out.

My refugium is going to be bare bottom, as well as the display tank, and I'm only using it for growing Macro until my phosphates and nitrates get low enough that it won't grow anymore.

[tankgirl2]

What about the pods? They eat bacteria, fish poop and zooplankton - all of which the skimmer would strip out if it comes before the fuge.

kw, I like that sump design!! Nice that the skimmer & fuge are in parallel rather than in series - makes the whole question about which to put 1st irrelevant.

Boxster, my understanding is that a fuge should have real low flow. With the ball valve, you could tweak it down to what it needs. Also, for mangroves, you need a lot of them, I believe, so a really big place to grow them. I think most people use something like a 100gal tub to grow them in. They're better than macros, but then so is zenia. I've talked to a couple of people who grow zenia in their fuge, instead of algae!

It's always a little confusing because most people use their fuge as an algal scrubber to grow macroalgae and harvest it out to remove phosphates, etc. But, a fuge is different - it's a refugium, a place where pods and minicrustaceans can live safely because the fish can't get to them. Like Geoff said, they stay close to the LR. Like Jimbo said, the nauplii do swim. I've read that a fair number of them can survive the journey thru a return pump, but unless they could bypass the skimmer pump, I would think they'd get stripped out by the skimmer.

But, then, if you have a reasonable amount of LR in the display tank, you'd probably have plenty of pods there. Even the fairy wrasses can't get into every nook and cranny to get to them. I guess they come out just after the lights go out to swim around in the water column and the fish could eat them, but there would probably be plenty that would stay safe.

The thing I didn't like about the algae scrubber is that the spill over light from the fuge allowed microalgae to grow in the rest of the sump. I've got tangs and felt they were better at harvesting algae than the macroalgae was at competing, and I can get the fish poop out. So I took my fuge (algae scrubber) out. I was using chaetomorpha as my macro, because it doesn't go sexual. Lately, I've been trying the zenia and harvesting it from the main tank.

[kwjones]

Oh...I forgot to mention, my skimmer is a HOB Remora Pro. It won't fit in my cabinet, so it's staying on the back of my tank and not going in the sump. This actually let me have a bigger fuge, so instead of 5 or 6 gallons the fuge is closer to 10. I'm only going for about 5x's turnover in my refugium and about 20x's or more turnover in my display tank.

Hmmm...my wife wants zenia. I've heard too many stories about it taking over a tank, so I don't want it. I may have to get some just to put in the fuge to make her happy.

[Boxster]

I like the concept of KWJs sump, but how do you control the return pumps draw? Will it draw from both sides evenly? or do you even want it to? if you want a low flow in the fuge side how would you prevent the pump from sucking from one side or the other?

Boxster