Sponsor Our Community
Go Back   The Reef Tank > Reef Discussion Forums > General Reef Discussion

General Reef Discussion In this forum we discuss issues related to keeping marine and reef aquariums in a friendly flame-free environment.


Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-09-2005, 10:35 PM   #16
phiberop840
My Kitty Cleans My Glass!
 
phiberop840's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 970
Heard alot about these RO/DI units and just dont know what to do. I have my LFS telling me that tap is just fine. Is that so I come back and buy more crap from him when things go bad?

I have been told that along with taking the bad out of the water that it also strips it of all the good also. The good is hard to replace and then your levels can go nuts. What is the deal with that?

How about water changes with RO/DI water and top offs with tap. How would that mix?

Thanks and Just FYI I only buy the little things on ebay. things that require parts or accessories I buy from Sponsors. Marine Depot has been treating me very good.

Mike
Registered Members don't see these ads. Register now it's free!
__________________
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
phiberop840 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 12:54 AM   #17
Tasher80
Shark
 
Tasher80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Valparaiso, IN
Posts: 2,290
Don't listen to the LFS about using tap water. Use RO/DI water. It is much better and safer for your tank. Believe the guys that aren't making money off you.
__________________
My Picture Gallery


180 gallon in wall reef tank.
Tasher80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 01:09 AM   #18
gbhil
Little Fishy
 
gbhil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: WV
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by phiberop840
I have been told that along with taking the bad out of the water that it also strips it of all the good also. The good is hard to replace and then your levels can go nuts. What is the deal with that?
All the "good stuff" is in a quality salt mix. Regular water changes will keep it right about where the experts think it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiberop840
How about water changes with RO/DI water and top offs with tap. How would that mix?
Not going to cut it. If you top off with bad water, you will eventually have problems.
gbhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 01:33 AM   #19
reef_noob
The Dude Abides
 
reef_noob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: RI
Posts: 1,129
Images: 1
The "RO/DI strips the good stuff out" argument is bunk. Any reef salt mix puts everything you need into the water. What a salt mix can't do is remove harmful stuff (excepting chloramine) from your tap water.

I'll explain a primary reason for using pure water:

- note, this only accounts for one element (phosphate) others such as silicate have similar issues.

Aquariums are closed systems. Without human intervention, nothing enters and nothing leaves. Elements can't be broken down any further than the elemental level (excepting fission reactions) They can, however, bond chemically with other elements into different forms which are more or less available to living organisms depending on their chemical makeup.

Why is this important? Well, studies have established that the primary limiting factor in reef systems is phosphate. Corals grow in biotopes in which the majority of phosphate is bound in existing organisms. Consequently, corals don't need a significant amount of bio-available phosphate, nor can they use it. In fact, the presence of phosphate in high levels inhibits coral growth (hence agricultural runoff destroying natural reefs). However, what we consider nuisance algae is exceptionally well suited to using free bio-available phosphate in the water column.

Phosphate is present in all organic matter in some form or another. Algae consumes free phosphate in the water column and binds it into a form which is unmeasurable by chemical water column tests. When dead algae (and other organic matter such as fish poop) decompose, the phosphate is released. However, it is quickly consumed by living algae, leading to cycles of nuisance algae.

In an ocean reef, phosphate is removed from the system through dilution. In a closed system such as a reef tank, there is no way for phosphate to leave the system excepting human intervention. We use skimmers and water changes to remove dissolved organics before they break down into their component compounds (notably, nitrate and phosphate). This is one way of managing nutrient levels (i.e. export of nutrients). However, export can only remove a small degree of organics. Therefore, we must consider the amount of nutrient we are importing into the system. All organic material we put into the system contains phosphate and nitrogenous compounds. Feeding is a large source of nutrient import, hence the recommendation to underfeed our tanks.

The other large source of nutrient import is tap water. Most well and city water contains a significant amount of dissolved solids (phosphate and silicate being most significant for our discussion). On avarage, american public potable water contains 200-300 parts per million (ppm) of total dissolved solids (tds). Certainly some of it is "good" for a reef (notably, magnesium, calcium, and strontium), and that is indeed stripped out by ro/di. However, as mentioned before, those elements are replaced by any reef salt mix.

Because of the potential introduction of high levels of phosphate and silicate, which feed respectively algae and diatom blooms, and further because of the potential to introduce harmful chemical compounds found in tap water (chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, and some heavy metals), it behooves us to add only pure water into our tanks and add trace elements as needed (primarily via salt mix, subsequently through testing and addition as needed)

To sum up, there are three main points:

1) Tap water contains chemical compounds which promote nuisance organic growth, and inhibit coral (particularly calcareous coral) growth.

2) RO/DI water is neutral, it is essentially free of all extraneous elements and chemical compounds regardless of their benefit or detriment in a reef environment.

3) The popular salt mixes on the market today add all necessary trace elements and condition water to 8.2-8.3 ph.

We are left with one question, why would you ever add things to a closed system that you will have to remove later?

Think of it this way: If I swallow some water with a toxic compound in it, I can have it removed through vomiting, sweating, and excreting (not to mention stomach pumping) but why should I swallow the toxic water in the first place if I can cheaply and easily purify it?

That is the short, non technical explanation...some of our more science minded individuals (spanky and tdwyatt in particular) have given exhaustive explanations which go way beyond my level of knowledge, and are available here. In particular, there was a think tank discussion of the week on phosphate which was very informative.

--- Not bad for my 500th post, eh?
__________________
-Chris

Proud member of the

All Hail Discordia!
reef_noob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 01:48 AM   #20
phiberop840
My Kitty Cleans My Glass!
 
phiberop840's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 970
Thank you Reef Noob. That was very informative. Now I understand how it works and why we need to do it. The next step is to figure out how all the tubes and stuff work and what I really need before i buy it.

Thanks
Mike
__________________
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
phiberop840 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 10:01 AM   #21
skeety
Tang Lover
 
skeety's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 7,284
Images: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by phiberop840
Thank you Reef Noob. That was very informative. Now I understand how it works and why we need to do it. The next step is to figure out how all the tubes and stuff work and what I really need before i buy it.

Thanks
Mike
Just in case you read this thread, and not your other one, here's a link to my RO/DI DIY site. It explains quite a lot, *I think*.

http://mysite.verizon.net/s0da/ro_di.html

hope it helps.

and ditto on the recommendation to get one. SOME (very, VERY rare) municipalities DO have really good water. MOST (almost all) do not.

You could always check with your water company.
__________________
skeety is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2005, 10:14 AM   #22
Brent Cone
Rockin-Roll Mod
 
Brent Cone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Coal Valley Illinois
Posts: 5,397
Images: 37
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by reef_noob
The "RO/DI strips the good stuff out" argument is bunk. Any reef salt mix puts everything you need into the water. What a salt mix can't do is remove harmful stuff (excepting chloramine) from your tap water.

I'll explain a primary reason for using pure water:

- note, this only accounts for one element (phosphate) others such as silicate have similar issues.

Aquariums are closed systems. Without human intervention, nothing enters and nothing leaves. Elements can't be broken down any further than the elemental level (excepting fission reactions) They can, however, bond chemically with other elements into different forms which are more or less available to living organisms depending on their chemical makeup.

Why is this important? Well, studies have established that the primary limiting factor in reef systems is phosphate. Corals grow in biotopes in which the majority of phosphate is bound in existing organisms. Consequently, corals don't need a significant amount of bio-available phosphate, nor can they use it. In fact, the presence of phosphate in high levels inhibits coral growth (hence agricultural runoff destroying natural reefs). However, what we consider nuisance algae is exceptionally well suited to using free bio-available phosphate in the water column.

Phosphate is present in all organic matter in some form or another. Algae consumes free phosphate in the water column and binds it into a form which is unmeasurable by chemical water column tests. When dead algae (and other organic matter such as fish poop) decompose, the phosphate is released. However, it is quickly consumed by living algae, leading to cycles of nuisance algae.

In an ocean reef, phosphate is removed from the system through dilution. In a closed system such as a reef tank, there is no way for phosphate to leave the system excepting human intervention. We use skimmers and water changes to remove dissolved organics before they break down into their component compounds (notably, nitrate and phosphate). This is one way of managing nutrient levels (i.e. export of nutrients). However, export can only remove a small degree of organics. Therefore, we must consider the amount of nutrient we are importing into the system. All organic material we put into the system contains phosphate and nitrogenous compounds. Feeding is a large source of nutrient import, hence the recommendation to underfeed our tanks.

The other large source of nutrient import is tap water. Most well and city water contains a significant amount of dissolved solids (phosphate and silicate being most significant for our discussion). On avarage, american public potable water contains 200-300 parts per million (ppm) of total dissolved solids (tds). Certainly some of it is "good" for a reef (notably, magnesium, calcium, and strontium), and that is indeed stripped out by ro/di. However, as mentioned before, those elements are replaced by any reef salt mix.

Because of the potential introduction of high levels of phosphate and silicate, which feed respectively algae and diatom blooms, and further because of the potential to introduce harmful chemical compounds found in tap water (chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, and some heavy metals), it behooves us to add only pure water into our tanks and add trace elements as needed (primarily via salt mix, subsequently through testing and addition as needed)

To sum up, there are three main points:

1) Tap water contains chemical compounds which promote nuisance organic growth, and inhibit coral (particularly calcareous coral) growth.

2) RO/DI water is neutral, it is essentially free of all extraneous elements and chemical compounds regardless of their benefit or detriment in a reef environment.

3) The popular salt mixes on the market today add all necessary trace elements and condition water to 8.2-8.3 ph.

We are left with one question, why would you ever add things to a closed system that you will have to remove later?

Think of it this way: If I swallow some water with a toxic compound in it, I can have it removed through vomiting, sweating, and excreting (not to mention stomach pumping) but why should I swallow the toxic water in the first place if I can cheaply and easily purify it?

That is the short, non technical explanation...some of our more science minded individuals (spanky and tdwyatt in particular) have given exhaustive explanations which go way beyond my level of knowledge, and are available here. In particular, there was a think tank discussion of the week on phosphate which was very informative.

--- Not bad for my 500th post, eh?
Very! Very! Good! Info!
__________________
Brent Cone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2005, 03:36 AM   #23
phiberop840
My Kitty Cleans My Glass!
 
phiberop840's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 970
Yes I thought so too.
__________________
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
phiberop840 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
algae outbreaks , coral growth , diatom bloom , diatom blooms , float valve , nitrogenous compounds , nuisance algae , power head , ppm tds , red hair algae , rodi unit , tds meter



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Sitemap:1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190
Sponsor Our Community

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Our lawyer tells us that, by pressing the "New Thread" or "New Reply" button, you acknowledge that the opinions and information expressed in your article are yours alone and not those of thereeftank.com, dba The Reef Tank. Further, you agree to indemnify The Reef Tank, its moderators, administrators and agents from any and all liability which may arise as a result of your article. (C)opyright 2006 TheReefTank.com