subject.....LFS

bobjenkins · 12-15-2001, 11:14 PM

I wanted to take time to post something on this b.b. as I feel it is something needed to be said. I have been on this board for approx 1 1/2 yrs, and have seen seen minimal threads about good experiences with local pet stores. The reason that I am posting this is that I recently starting working at a lfs and I LOVE IT!!!! So many people write posts about un-enjoyable experiences with them that they often forget the second side of the story. I love both MANY opinions offered at my place of employment, and on here, YET not all. NOBODY will ever like everything they here at a certain place. One thing people seem to forget is ONE statement made by one an employee at a lfs that was posted not so long ago that is VERY true. That is the one regarding how hobbyists go elsewhere to buy fish (online, chain stores) and then proceed to go ask all of their questions to the lfs's. You have NO idea how much this hurts them (financially). I am glad to help any customer that walks through the doors where i work, yet i'd love to see their business as well as their interests/questions. Until you actually work through it you have no idea what it's like. I used to be one of the types of peeps who would do nothing but slam the lfs around here, until i started working for them. We average 50-75 customers a day on the weekends who come in and give the good ole "i purchased this or that and i want to know what it's needs are". We answer as many of them as we can as we feel that someday we will earn their trust and gain their business as well. Try getting that out of an online store, somebody who's a "customer service" rep, that has no clue what he's selling to his customers. I realize the price difference in some cases are large...but I also will not hesitate to say that it's well worth it when you get to see your purchase before you buy it, as well as have it come with a 7 day guarantee (longer as well if we realize that it was our mistake which DOES in fact happen). Lets face it, lfs owners do NOT make that much money. In fact, I work there as my second job, and my first job I make approx. $13/hr....and I take home more there then the owner of the store does. Yes they have their perks/write offs, but it doesn't add up to that much of a difference. I admit there are some crappy lfs out there who are just trying to make a $$, and there are fellow employees where I work at that are just p.t. workers trying to earn some green. BUT you get that online to. You get that on this bb to ( to the extent of people who are set in their ways and will not accept that somebody else has a separate opinion). The lfs that are the good ones are in fact usually the lfs. It's the ones that are locally owned, who care about animals and don't wanna see them suffer at any cost. My recommendation to all of those who think of the lfs's as foes is to go to one of them that, and ask if you can shadow for a day to see what it's like. See what they go through, ask to see an invoice sometime...see what THEY actually pay for the fish, and the little mark up they have on it when they have 5 or 6 employees to pay as well as themselves. After a full day of answering everybody's ??? who have purchased elsewhere, you can see why things get said in poor taste...why things may come out the wrong way...and my guess is you'll have a completely different opinion all together....

Sincerely,

A Distressed Reefer/LFS Employee
DSM, Iowa

FishDaddy · 12-15-2001, 11:48 PM

Bob,
Your comments about conscientious LFS and employees are well taken. It's obvious that you care about the animals you sell/keep.

If you will read the last several days' posts, you will find a lot of our members who have had recent good experiences with LFS.....several new purchases of nice coral, fish, and even a new Moray! These are satisfied customers of their particular LFS or they wouldn't have gone there and bought.

I, and most of our members fortunate to have a good LFS nearby, support local stores. I buy everything possible locally because the store owners are friends of mine and they do a fine job. I want them to stay in business because I like them and it is a service to me. If you read back through posts, you will often see recommendations to buy locally if there is a good store. One of our Moderators happens to work at a LFS. Many people simply don't have any LFS at all nearby and regrettably, there are some stores that do not do a very good job.

We've discussed this frequently off and on over the years and the consensus seems to favor LFS purchasing wherever possible for all the reasons you mention.

It is not my intention here to criticize any posts that have been made on the subject; we try to keep an open forum but we
will keep it civil and friendly! Again, I'm not referring to any particular thread or person, but sometimes things do get out of line and our Moderators and dedicated members do everything possible to get things back the way our Mission Statement and board policies intend.

One thing is abundantly clear: running an independent LFS is a very tough business....there is competition from the chains and MO companies, and from other LFS. Just like any other business, those who offer quality and service will get repeat business and have a better chance of success. And, just like any other business, the employee who is disrespectful to a customer, whether the customer buys or not, ultimately costs his/her boss money.

Again, I appreciate your point of view. With your experience in the hobby, how 'bout joining in some of the other discussions?
Dick)

Doug1 · 12-16-2001, 12:40 AM

Bob, if you look back on the posts over tha last few years you will find that even in the face of (fillin blank sux) We have fostered an attitude of supporting Decent LFS.
Speaking strictly for myselff, I have been involved in the hobby off and on since 1975 and have been intimately aquainted with more than a few fish stores over the years. I agree with your points. And I am sure that the members here who work at or run LFS will agree with you, its a very frustrating buisness to be in, sep if its not an all encompassiing issue like it is for us.
Believe me one of the basic tenents I try to instill in new reefers is A; NO LFS is ever gonna be perfect
B: the best one can use your imput to improve
its knowledge level.

beach bum · 12-16-2001, 04:04 AM

I agree with you Bobjenkins,

After I harangued one of my nearby lfs owners with a barage of questions one day, I asked him if he ever got tired of discussing the nitrogen cycle with beginners, or discussing lighting with a reefer. He said nope, he LIKES to do it, he likes educating people so they have more success in the hobby. This guy is retired and it has since taken him years to finally get to a point with his store where he can focus more on tropical/marine fish and corals than on the tons of dog/cat food he had to sell to pay the bills.

But he also knows where the money comes from. If he sells a freshwater oscar his money comes from feeder fish, if he sells reef livestock his money comes from water conditioners & supplements. If he sells an emperor filter his money comes from replacement pads, if he sells a tank his money comes from test kits, etc... Of course if he sells live rock his money comes from live rock

Now that I think about it...his money comes from me!!

I LOVE lfs that have good selections of one type of product, like 10 different brands of skimmers, every imagineable frozen or prepared food, etc... So I hardly expect them to know the ins and outs of every product they carry. Some people like to be told what to buy however, it gives them a sense of "this is the right way". If when I started I was presented with ALL the possibilities that I NOW know are out there, I would not have been able to make heads or tails of all that 411.

Bottom line??? (well it's about time, writing another book, eh, chris?) The bottom line is we are a knowledgeable, experienced and spoiled (with good fortune to be TRT'rs) bunch of aquarists who demand ALOT from our lfs's!! Use an example whatever it is you do for a living, whatever it is you are good at. For me, I have been a golf instructor for quite a while. If I go to a Nevada Bob's golf shop or for that matter any golf club pro shop - there is no way they can hope to convince me I need this or that, even if they really think I do, I know better. But that has taken time, I have spent $$$ on junk I didn't need, but that doesn't happen much anymore, if at all. At one time they did know more than me, not anymore. But I still like to talk shop with them! Now the same thing is happening with my little (actually BIG

) fish hobby (actually ADDICTION

)

Just My Opinion, Hope This Helps, For What It's Worth,

Chris

"...you can't close yet mr. lfs, I have another question!"

dolf · 12-16-2001, 04:25 AM

All of you MUST like typing.
Anyhow, in response to your comment about minimal good experiences being posted I would like to point out that it is much easier to give a bad experience than a good. Also, anger seems to need to vent while joy wants to stay and linger... I posted a thread at another forum 2 or 3 days ago entitled "bloody LFS!" In it I vented how when I asked about a green coris wrase the fellow tried to interest me in a red. From what I have read about red their natural food is urchins, mollusks and crabs, all of which he had sold me in the previous 4 mos. Now, I realize that he may not know their natural diet or it is even possible that my info is wrong (found it online,) but it was still upsetting.

I ended the thread by saying that he has the best quality livestock in town and he will still have my business (I buy about 75% from him) and recommendation. After a few days of reflection I will tell you that the incident angered me, but I usually get great info from him and he is always willing to take the time to answer questions or just talk. He maintains perhaps the healthiest corals I have seen and is a wealth of information. I can quite honestly say that he seems to be interested in each of his customers and I have found that though he is interested in making money, (after all, who isn't,) he will usually try to steer you in what he considers the right direction (we all have differing opinions on how to maintain a reef.)

Hopefully this clears up the reason you see so much LFS bashing- it is, I believe, not usually about the ongoing experiences, but rather just the one bad day when we get fed up and need to know others are going through, or have gone through the same things; though we do not, at that time, wish to hear about the good which comes out of the LFS, nor do we wish to hear any arguments- only the negative, which a post with the title "Bloody LFS" is liable to get. (Yes, Mark Twain is one of my favorite authors simply for the fact that he can fill a page with a single sentence.)

You make a very good point about using your LFS for info then ordering on-line. It is unfair and in my opinion unethical to waste their time when you have no intention of buying from them. I find people claim to be fed-up with the lack of personal service they receive everywhere from the bank to the government to the hardware store, and when they do get the personalized service they want it makes no sense to go somewhere just to save $5.00 thereby slowly driving the retailer out of business and choking the little store that is willing to go the extra mile, leaving only huge national chains. (Told ya- I love Twain.

) There are two little hobby stores in town that went under and claimed that this was a large part of the reason. Customers would buy from a magazine then come in for advice. If you want to have the service then for Pete's sake, support them!
(O.K. looks like I must love typing as well.

)

FishDaddy · 12-16-2001, 06:55 AM

Oh, Chris,
I've been having trouble hooking, the ball; now, which clubs would you recommend me buying to hit the ball straight???

Dick

Alice · 12-16-2001, 11:27 AM

Welcome to The Reef Tank bobjenkins and Dolf! I do feel that we here at TRT try to stress the positive about most situations, and try to find resolutions to problems rather than enflaming the situation; it adds to our sense of community.

I work at an LFS part time and I enjoy it too. I love helping people who are new in the hobby (that's why I'm here!) as well as conversing with "old salts" who often teach me a thing or three. It can be frustrating at times but what job can't be? The difference here however, at least for me, is that I strongly feel the need to educate. I am polite, will take the time to answer as many questions as I can or direct them to other sources of info if I just don't know (as does the owner, he's on the phone practically from the time he gets up until the time he goes to bed!) To me, this is one business where the old saying "the customer is always right" just cannot apply. I am polite but firm when I tell people that they cannot put a tang in a two week old 29 gallon tank or that they just do not have the lighting for that anemone. I do explain the reasons why and some people honestly want to learn while others take offense and some days you just can't win. I hear "Well, that's your opinion" every so often, and yes sometimes it is just my opinion but I won't tell them what they want to hear and they sometimes take their business elsewhere. But this is a business after all so we do try really hard to accomodate everyone and if they have a problem, we fix it. We just want to try our best to keep them from having a problem situation in the first place!

We do have people who will come in, ask myriad questions and not buy anything. We do have people who do that a lot and then come back needing help when they received bad info, bad product, etc. We try to help them in the hopes that we can save their livestock and of course, so that we can secure their business. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes that person with the 29 gallon tank that drove you to distraction with 50 questions on a Saturday afternoon when the shop was so full that you had to hold a full skimmer cup in front of you just to clear a path is the person who's ready to upgrade to a 180 and chooses your shop because you've always been so nice and answered all their questions!

I'm on the "other side of the counter" too; I shop around at other LFS. For the most part, the experiences are good, on occasion they are not. I always give the benefit of the doubt and try another visit. I live my life on the principle that most people are decent and want to do the right thing, and that applies to LFS owners and customers too!

Gee, this thread inspires mini-novels!

Alice

beach bum · 12-16-2001, 12:42 PM

Are you asking for FREE advice FishDaddy? Cuz' if you don't plan on buying your clubs from me or signing up for lessons, there will have to be a consultation fee!

Actually I think the only club I've never "hooked" is my putter, of course I can't really say that it goes straight either!!

ARGGHH - I can't stop myself from giving some real advice!!! So here 'tis - Without making refinements on your swing, stance, or grip, there is only a couple of things to do about your hook equipment-wise.
1. grip-size: too small = too much release and a closed clubface at impact (hook) & can also encourage too much of a "handsy" swing which can seep into your short game (bad news)
2. shaft flex: if not stiff enough to match a fast swing speed, the club will "kick" prior to impact instead of at impact resulting in a closed clubface and a hook.
3. If it is just a single club that you are having trouble with it might be that the shaft characteristics don't match the rest or your set. Manufacturing tolerances that aren't fail-safe, stress points, kick points, flex, all play together. Or maybe you just threw that club one too many times!!

FishDaddy, if you aren't really fighting a hook then I'm pretty

And if you don't even golf than I'm pretty

And if I don't get my cosultation fee...well...

bobjenkins · 12-16-2001, 02:20 PM

I want to thank everybody who read/replied to this post. I in no way was trying to start an argument (sorry if it came out that way) I just know of many new enthusiasts who come to read this board, and most of the time see the "lfs horror story" and so on and automatically think sheesh, better not even waist my time. I have a few posts on here (under Wagnutz69) but cannot find my password as I have changed email accts therefore chose this new name (sounds less childish as well!!! lol). I LOVE visiting this board, and posting on it...and hope that I have not angered too many of ya!!! Thanks for your time!

BOB

Doug1 · 12-16-2001, 05:25 PM

Hey Bob, I changed your email addy in old user name, and sent you the pass word

wagnutz69 · 12-16-2001, 07:40 PM

WOOOHOOOO, I'VE BEEN RE-BORN....!!!!!

THANKS DOUG

BOB

FishDaddy · 12-16-2001, 09:25 PM

Bob,
Good to have you back under your "real" name! We appreciate your contributions to TRT.

Quote:

FishDaddy, if you aren't really fighting a hook then I'm pretty :embarrasment: And if you don't even golf than I'm pretty
And if I don't get my cosultation fee...well...

Chris,
Actually, I had to give the game up a few years back due to a series of injuries and my Classic Wilson Staffs are just gathering dust in the closet.

I wasn't that good but did manage to play a wee bit in college. My Dad was my only teacher. He was a scratch player who could still beat his age into his late 70's. He's now 83 and also unable to play anymore, but we still enjoy talking a good game together!
BTW, thanks for the "free" advice!!

Dick

subject.....LFS

free advice?!??!?!!??!