plumbing and return pumps...

[YLChik]

Ok so here is the next step in the tank building process for me.

Here is a quick look at what I have going so far...

95 corner tank - sps/lps tank trying BB methodology

total system gallons about 200 - 225

Looking for lower cost electricity options - less energy = better for me
less pumps = better for me also less heat

lighting
2*250 w MH 10k reeflux bulbs on ARO ballests
2 * 24w T5 ati blue plus
1 *36W T5 ati blue plus

Skimmer
ATI bubblemaster 200

Sump
90 gallon tank - runnign with about 75 gallons of water in it.

55 gallon frag tank
will use my curent T5 set up as light with power heads for flow.

This will be a basement sump and here is how my piping will need to run...
We have no ceiling up in the basement yet so that is a Godsend.

2.5 ft from the drain on the tank threw the floor to the basement
90 elbow
18 ft across the basement ceiling ( kids play room)
90 elbow
6 ft along wall ( kids play room)
90 elbow - to get through the wall into the wet room
9 feet through wet room to sump
some consiguration of 90's or 45's to get the pipe down to the sump
and from ceiling to sump another 7 feet

total is 44ish feet....

and another 44 - 50 ft to get it back up into the tank.

the drain is currently 1.50 in will hold 2.8 gallons of water in the pipe
return is .75 - will hold 1.12 gallons of water in pipe

( I think these are the right measurements... Whiskey Kelli said ask you so is it right?)

I can run both as drains and make the return come up over the tank...

So here are my questions...

1. What are the benifits to using flex spa tubing on the drain? I realize they will cut head loss on the return, but what about the drain.

2. How do I go about figuring out what size return pump to use.

3. Pro's and Con's to internal vs external pumps.

4. What order would you run water through....
main tank - sump - frag tank - back to display
main tank - frag tank - sump - back to display

5. other imput you may have - lets hear it.

[DarthOcellaris]

Originally Posted by YLChik

1. What are the benifits to using flex spa tubing on the drain? I realize they will cut head loss on the return, but what about the drain.

2. How do I go about figuring out what size return pump to use.

3. Pro's and Con's to internal vs external pumps.

4. What order would you run water through....
main tank - sump - frag tank - back to display
main tank - frag tank - sump - back to display

5. other imput you may have - lets hear it.

1. easier to route your paths, quieter, easier to cut.
2. I'll leave this to the pro's
3. internal pumps: generate heat and are to maintain generally. But they won't leak all over the stand. external: doesnt transfer heat to the water. easier to maintain. But they COULD leak onto the stand. They are generally more powerful.

4. I'd run water through the frag tank last just before returning it. It'll be cleaner and better for frags.

[Dagrape]

I am no pro but for a return pump you will probably want something external. I am not sure if many internal pumps are good with head pressure so you would have a TON of loss. Look up a head loss caculator on google. If you know how long your pipe runs are and how many fittings/valves you have plus the elevation difference between the tank and the sump you can figure out about how much 'head pressure' you will need to overcome. Then you can select an appropriate pump.

Another thing you may want to think about is the diameter of your return lines. Yuo may want to buy a pump that has a 1 or 1 1/2" diameter discharge and run a larger diameter pipe back to the tank and reduce it down just before reaching the tank. Smaller diameter pipe will cause a high flow velocity. you may and up with turbulant flow throught the pipe witch would not oly increase noise but would greatly increase the head losses.

[Dimples]

Okay, edited for ease of responding.

Originally Posted by YLChik

95 corner tank - sps/lps tank trying BB methodology

Yeah new tank

Looking for lower cost electricity options - less energy = better for me

Low cost options? Is there such a thing in this hobby?
How about stocking the tank with items that don't need light?


This will be a basement sump and here is how my piping will need to run...
2.5 ft from the drain on the tank threw the floor to the basement
90 elbow
18 ft across the basement ceiling ( kids play room)
90 elbow
6 ft along wall ( kids play room)
90 elbow - to get through the wall into the wet room
9 feet through wet room to sump
some consiguration of 90's or 45's to get the pipe down to the sump
and from ceiling to sump another 7 feet

Reads good to me because it will not leak into the scrapbooking room

1. What are the benifits to using flex spa tubing on the drain? I realize they will cut head loss on the return, but what about the drain.

Spa tubing? You're putting a spa in your house? Why didn't you tell me? I could support that mission

4. What order would you run water through....
main tank - sump - frag tank - back to display
main tank - frag tank - sump - back to display

Yes? No? Both?

If you need anymore help from me, just ask! I'm available at all times of the day.

[YLChik]

ok that was funny Jess!

DEfinatly good that it will not leak into the scrapbook room

[DarthOcellaris]

Originally Posted by YLChik

ok that was funny Jess!

DEfinatly good that it will not leak into the scrapbook room

My wife does scrapbooking too...pretty neat little hobby

[crvz]

1. What are the benifits to using flex spa tubing on the drain? I realize they will cut head loss on the return, but what about the drain.
I don't know what the costs of spaflex is… but head loss on a drain can be pretty easily handled by just increasing the pvc diameter. I think your drain is 1", right? Grab a bushing ($1 each) and increase it to 1.5" right under the display tank, then all the travel through the basement will be with a larger diameter pipe. Now your head loss on the drain is probably negligible.

2. How do I go about figuring out what size return pump to use.
First you have to figure out how much head loss you have, which is partially detrmined by piping diameter, then try to figure out what kind of flow you want in the sump. Using the head loss calc at RC, let's say you've got 40 ft of horizontal plumbing, 10 feet of vertical, seven 90 degree turns, two 45s, and you're using 1" PVC. Chosing a mag 12 for the sake of comparison, that'll give you about 375gph return. Now if you can figure out a way to step it up to 1.25" or 1.5" PVC, you can get another 100 or 175 gph out of the same pump. Honestly, that's probably about the most you'll want to put through the sump (due to skimmer considerations), so a pump of that size is maybe a good starting point.

3. Pro's and Con's to internal vs external pumps.
I like internal, as it's less likely to leak, but with as much plumbing as you're looking at you'll want to make sure you've got plenty of union's in place for servicing and maintenance. Con's of internal is that there's often more heat involved and they can't push as much water, but for a return I think you can get by with an internal pump.

4. What order would you run water through....
main tank - sump - frag tank - back to display
main tank - frag tank - sump - back to display
This depends on what sump you end up with. If you have a stock tub, it's kind of hard to get baffles in there, and I'd be concerned of micro bubbles getting back to the display if both the skimmer and return are in the same section (hopefully someone with more experience can better address this issue). If that's the case, I'd put the frag tank after the sump to help alleviate some of the micro bubbles, but then it'd be a bit weird to have the return pump inside the frag tank (if you do internal). If you have a stock tank (or custom sump) that you can stick baffles in, maybe you'd consider putting the frag tank in front of the sump, as it'll be a lot easier for configuring the return.

5. other imput you may have - lets hear it.
Quit belly-aching about the cold and get that top routed out already!

[YLChik]

Originally Posted by crvz

5. other imput you may have - lets hear it.
Quit belly-aching about the cold and get that top routed out already!

LOL! ok lots of good stuff there but yeash! Slave driver!
I am afraid if I start I won't stop until it's all together... remember the seahorse tank!

I think going with a glass tank or a made sump is where I am headed instead of the stock tank for the reasons you mentioned.

We have a LFS that has a dollar a gallon sale so a 90 for 90 dollars is a great deal imo - and only like 25 more bucks than the 100 gallon stock tank.... plus there is always the used tanks ect....

[crvz]

That glass tank thought is a good idea. And whatever sized plumbing you go with, make sure you're familiar with these. They'll make fixing things or tearing things down much easier (say if a snail gets in the drain, if you have these every 10 feet or so, you'll won't have to redo all the plumbing).

[DarthOcellaris]

Originally Posted by YLChik

We have a LFS that has a dollar a gallon sale so a 90 for 90 dollars is a great deal imo -

yeah it is! I paid 100 bucks for a 37 gallon a few years ago

[YLChik]

ah unions.. yes I have those on the seahorse tank... bugger to find.. they are only at Lowes here not HD not Menards... in case ya all care to shop here

[crvz]

I found some at HD last time I looked, but for my tank I just bought them online.

[ScruffyRubicon]

If you decide to go with an external pump, check with others on how much heat was transferred. I added 2 degrees with the one I bought for my skimmer.

[DarthOcellaris]

Originally Posted by ScruffyRubicon

If you decide to go with an external pump, check with others on how much heat was transferred. I added 2 degrees with the one I bought for my skimmer.

2 degrees from an EXternal pump? What pump?

[ScruffyRubicon]

Originally Posted by DarthOcellaris

2 degrees from an EXternal pump? What pump?

Panworld NH-PS250

Great pump but things heated up until I added a fan over the water surface.