nitrate problem somewhere

[pookeydi]

What could cause nitrate levels to be at continous high levels? It's a 55 gal tank with a wet sump pump of the trickle down variety with bioballs. There's also a seaclone protein skimmer in the sump. It's a reef tank with only 1 clown fish and numerous invertebrates. Other fish that have been purchased, including a lion fish, achilles trigger, yellow tang, and a blue damsel that have been introduced to the tank bite the dust within 2 weeks. I have done 25% water changes on a weekly basis since the nitrate problem began 2 months ago. I read in a previous post that it's possible the bioballs are causing the problem. Should i clean the bioballs in the sump? Do more frequent and larger water changes? Any helpful insight would greatly be appreciated by myself and the fish in the ever growing fish cemetery!!!



pookeydi

[reefguy]

bioballs could be causing the nitrate problem, but i have to ask...what is your current nitrate level? i just removed the last of my bioballs this week, and if you are going to remove them it is best to do it in stages (1/3 at a time, a week between removals) to minimize the impact on your tank and allow bacteria numbers to come up to adequate levels. bioballs have been know to facilitate higher nitrates than in tanks without them. with bioballs in my tank, my nitrates were always between 10-15 ppm, regardless of feeding or water change frequency. hope this helps...

[semajftw]

i agree with what reefguy said.
but more info is needed to answer the problem in a more sufficient way. do you have live rock or a deep sand bed?
do you run a protein skimmer? do you have refugium? a sump?
how is your tank setup?

the bioballs have been called nitrate factories by many members here. but if you have no other biological filtration means (lr or dsb) then you really cant just take the bioballs out.

a refugium with caulerpa in it will help consume the nitrates also

there are many different ways to set up a reef tank and have it be successful. there are some members that use the bio balls and have success with. (I think they submerge the bioballs though, i am not sure)

HTH - James

[karsco]

Pookey, I would say there is a very good chance this is what is causing your nitrate problems. I also have a couple of questions about your set up. How much live rock do you have? What are you using for your sand bed? (ie crushed coral, fine sand etc.) My last question is how often and how much do you feed? OK I lied, one more question have you thought of setting up a refugium to lower your nitrates?

[clearskys]

source water??? use RO/DI?? Well Water near Ag land??

What is your nitrate reading? Maybe its another factor?

Fish are not entirely reactive to Nitrate, I would first worry about ammonia,nitrite, since nitrate is the end result. If your are on farm land on a well, chances are your nitrates are sky high, mine out of the tap are at about 80ppm, due to fertilizers, pesticides, and human "debris" through septic leeching, ect...
This all hinges on if you are useing RO/DI or not.

[tdwyatt]

...mine out of the tap are at about 80ppm...

wow... 80ppm from the tap...that is pretty stout...

Regardless of your nitrate source, for now you would be well advised to stop adding any fishes or food (short of what your fish can consume in 2 or 3 minutes) to the tank. Measure what you're adding (especially the food). Give us more information and statistics about your tank as per the posts above and a rundown on what you do to monitor the tank, as well as your husbandry practices. Even something that might seem insignificant to you may be the clue that helps describe what is happening with your system.

[Doug1]

Points well taken. Bioballs in the typical trickle filter application are very efficient at converting ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate because the bacteria that live on the bioballs are very active in highly oxygenated water( as in a trickle filter)
The problem is that the bacteria that convert nitrate into free nitrogen are anerobic and do their thing in low oxygen areas(ie inside Live Rock or deepsand bed) Thats why the build up of nitrate without the proper anoxic areas to support denitrifyig bacteria. Typically aerobic bacteria inhabit the surfaces of LR and LS etc, in close proximity to the anerobic bacteria that live deeper so as the N cycle proceeds its in close proximity and the anerobic bacteria can further reduce most of the produced .nitrate
Further complicating the mess is source water which ranges from tolerable to horrid, Municpal water supplies not only use chlorine/chloramine but frequently flush the system with organophosphates and other crap , not to mention the heavy metals and other pollutants that may not be removed by the filtration process.
Well water, ewwwww another potential nightmare, for the reasons mentioned in the last replies.
Bottom line, if you are not using RO/DI water from well functioning equipment ll the water changes will not help

[pookeydi]

I'm thinking the bioballs would be the problem. I've read that if the bioballs are exposed to air, then they can become a nitrate factory. Unfortunately, due to my slack, the sump level of my water was a little too low twice in the past month so possibly the bioballs were exposed to air. I'm thinking of removing the bioballs and converting to a sand filtration system.

The nitrate levels have remained at 10ppm for the past 5 weeks.

To answer your questions, I do have a protein skimmer, SeaClone brand, that is located in the sump pump. I have approx. 8lbs. of live rock in the tank. Since there's only 1 clown fish, I only feed him brine shrimp once a week. I figured he can forage for most of his food since I used to feed the fish, back when I had more in the tank, 1 piece of brine shrimp every day. The sand bed in the tank is fine sand. I'm thinking that might be another problem with the nitrate level since I need to remove some of the sand as it is hosting a lot of yucky stuff in it's thick layer. There is no refugium setup. I couldn't even tell you what a refugium is.

Thanks to all for your help. I hope to get this nitrate problem solved soon.

[FishDaddy]

Pookeydi,
With only 8# of live rock in your tank, IMHO, you do not have enough other biofiltration to be able to remove the bioballs. While they can produce Nitrates, your current level of 10ppm is acceptable at this point. The Seaclone is, well, inadequate.

A proper sandbed can be an effective biofilter that will sustain a moderate bioload on its own, but it takes time to fully mature; perhaps a year or more. Your DSB should be 4-6" to have full benefit. I would recommend against removing any of the sand. The gunky stuff is the organic matter being broken down by the bacteria.
Please see:
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

I would recommend against adding any more fish to this system until you have increased your LR to at least 50# and gotten a skimmer that will handle this size tank.
HTH,
Dick

[karsco]

I second Fish Daddys comments. I would at least get 50 lbs of live rock at a minimum. Increase your sand bed depth to 4-6 inches with a fine sand such as Caribbean aragonite or southdown sand. Nobody said this hobby was cheap! Good luck!

[Jimbo]

Hi,

Hi when you said you were going to convert to a sand filtration system, was that a undergravel filter? If so it would be no better than your current setup. Bio balls trap nutrients whether or not they are exposed to air hence the words wet/dry filtration. Lighting can be an important aspect in a reeftank also. I agree with what the others have said about deep sand beds. 10ppm nitrate is not all that bad considering your current setup.

Hope this helps

[semajftw]

Other fish that have been purchased, including a lion fish, achilles trigger, yellow tang, and a blue damsel that have been introduced to the tank bite the dust within 2 weeks.

back to the original problem at hand.
what are the other levels in your tank? nitrite and ammonia are probably fine because of the bioballs (they are good for that denitrification process). but what a ph, salinity, temp, etc.
how old is your tank?

are you properly acclimating your livestock after purchase?
is the livestock healthy when you purchased it?

we know there is a problem, we just need more info to figure out what is wrong. the nitrates at 10ppm should not be a problem for most fish, (the nitrates will effect the inverts faster than the fish)

hope this helps
-James

[pookeydi]

Thanks for the advice everyone. This weekend I am definitely shopping this weekend for more sand and more LR. The current sandbed is only 2-3 inches, max. In answer to fish daddy's questions and comments, the protein skimmer CLAIMS to be able to handle up to 100gal tank. Since mine was only 55gal, I thought it would be more than suitable. The bioballs are staying for now. I have to move in 2 months so I think that's when a lot of renovations will take place. The current setup limits water circulation through the back section of the tank and that can't be good. I'm also learning the process of aging non-tap water before adding to the tank. Lots of little overlooks on my part. Tons of great advice from you great saltwater enthusiasts. Keep up the great support for the newbies to the saltwater world!!!

[FishDaddy]

Pookeydi,
Sounds like a good plan. As for the skimmer, if you will do a board search for Seaclone, you will find lots of comments about this skimmer.
Dick

[Doug1]

Agree on the skimmer, thats a case of optimistic rating. Then again there is no standard that every skimmer is compared to
Hopefully when you get moved you can get an RO/DI and some more circulklation going in the tank as well as more LR. Some more sand would help but more imprtantly getting it innoculated with the detrivores and stuff to vreate a functioning live sand bed will really help a lot, Good Luck