Newbie reefer seeks some guidance

[Reefer Addict]

Well, I guess I should start from the beginning (being that I'm new here)...
I've had freshwater aquariums since my childhood and have had few problems other than pet-store induced diseases when adding new specimens. I also had a saltwater fish-only aquarium (10-gallon) for about a year which I also had good luck with until I moved and gave to some friends (who had really bad luck with it). So I'm not a complete aquarium newbie, just a newbie to reefs.
Anyway, the wife and I have gotten bit by the reef tank bug in a BIG way, and have finally decided to take the plunge. I have my best friend to blame for this, as it was his fault that he took us to see a gorgeous reef tank he was babysitting for the weekend.
Anyway, to make a short story long, this is the equipment we have purchased so far:

50 Gallon tall aquarium (3/8" glass, 36"x24"x16")
6 Maxi-Jet 1200 Power Heads (for in-tank water movement)
SeaClone 150 Protein Skimmer
Natural Wave Wavemaker/Outlet Strip
400W MH lamp with ballast

We are planning on ordering the 50-gallon reef tank "package" from Tampa Bay Saltwater, which includes:
100 Lbs. Live Rock
50 Lbs. Live Sand
100 Blue-Legged Hermits
25 Turbo Snails
2 Tiger-Tail Cucumbers
2 Serpent or Brittle Stars
2 Pistol Shrimp
(Not too bad for $525 + shipping)

We would like to have the tank set up so that we can add whatever inverts we want (such as corals, anemonies and xenia), and also Tridacnid clams (they're one of my favorites). Of course we also plan on adding a few small fish and shrimp, but we want the focus of the tank to be the reef inhabitants.

The first question I have, is the 400W Halide acceptable for this size tank? I had planned on supplementing this with a couple of 40W daylight fluorescents, but was curious if this will be covering the spectrum well enough. I'm going to build a custom canopy (or wall unit) for the tank so space really shouldn't be a problem if I need extra lighting.
Also, has anybody had any experience with Tampa Bay Saltwater? They seem like a very reputable outfit and have quite a few happy customer testimonials, but I figure that if there were any place to ask this question, it would be here.

I've read some reviews on the SeaClone line of protein skimmers and know that they're not as efficient as something like a CPR Bak Pak, so I ordered the 150 rather than the 100 hoping that the extra size rating would more than make up for any deficiencies in the design (plus I got it for $80 which was about 1/3 the cost of the 'better' skimmers). The reviewers either seemed to love the SeaClone or hate it, but I figured as a starter PS it would suffice.

I've tried to follow the reef tank formulas I've found around the internet when choosing components, such as cycling your tank water at least 10x per hour, etc. but am just wondering if there's anything else I should beware of in my design or plan?

I was told that I wouldn't need a sump with a tank of this size. Supposedly the live rock/sand and protein skimmer along with the cleanup crew included with the "package" I mentioned would keep the tank cycling naturally with minimal maintenance (if you can use the word 'minimal' in the same sentence as 'reef tank maintenance' ).

Anyway, I know this is a doozie of a first post, but I've browsed here the past couple days and everybody has seemed very helpful.

Thanks.
David.

[Reedman]

First off, welcome to TRT. Great people and advice here.

Now, the 400W MH is great, but you may have some heat issues and depending on the surface area of the tank cooling via evaporation may not cut it. This would lead to needing a chiller ($$$).

I can tell you from experience that the 40W NO bulbs will almost not be noticeable once the MH is on. You will probably want to go with either VHO or PC for supplemental light.

I have no 1st hand experience with TBS, but have read both good and bad. Most of the bad has to do with the hitchikers (mantis shrimp). Also, the blue-leg hermits are rumored to be borderline evil in the tank. They may kill your snails for their shells.

The rest looks pretty good for a first look. Take it real slow and let the tank mature. The end result is worth it.

Good luck and congrats on the endeavor!

[mikeMersot]

Welcome,
As far as the skimmer goes, the sea-clone is definately a pretty poor one, although it may suffice early on, I gaurantee you will be wanting something better soon, if possible I would try and return it and get either a CPR bakpak or an Aqua-C Remora. Best to start off with the right equipment in my experience. On to the lighting, the 400 W should be well more than enough to keep just about anything, but be careful in such a shallow tank not to burn corals with it. in response to spectrum, that depends on what exactly you are going to have in there and your personal aesthetic tastes, I personally find 65k K with actinic supplementation to give the best growth in stoney corals. Also a MH will cover a 2' spread with direct intense light, so you will have a little bit of a lower light area on the sides, if you have a brace on the tank haing 1 light may be a problem. NO supplementaion is pretty much out of the question with MH, far too weak to notice, VHO would be best probably. Blue leg hermits can get aggressive, especially for shells, they will kill snails for them, they also get pretty bit, although some people may disagree, I think 100 is far too many in a 50 gal, I think snalis do more good than hermits for the most part. That deal does sound like a pretty good price though, almost too good. if you want to look elsewhere for cleanup crews check out GARF, they offer scarlet hermits, which are much more reef-friendly. To address the maintenance issue, the cleanup crew will help, but for about the first year or so you will have a lot to keep you busy.

[Harpo]

David, welcome to TRT. You have come to a great place, where all anyone wants to do is help you succeed.
Here is my 2cents worth, read, read, read, and read a little more. Make sure before you add any crew, you have totally cycled, or you could be sending alot of them critters to an early grave . Take your time, and go slow at all of this. Get on line and ask all the questions you can think of, it really helps cut down on expenses, and losses. The folks here are good at letting you know if you are ready for the next step as you progress. To move to fast in any area could mean the crash of an entire system.
Once again welcome aboard, were gladd your here, and look forward to getting to know you.

Bill

[Reefer Addict]

Wow, 3 replies already... this is a great community.

Okay, now to tackle the feedback.
Reedman said:

Now, the 400W MH is great, but you may have some heat issues and depending on the surface area of the tank cooling via evaporation may not cut it. This would lead to needing a chiller ($$$).

I can tell you from experience that the 40W NO bulbs will almost not be noticeable once the MH is on. You will probably want to go with either VHO or PC for supplemental light.

I was afraid of that... I think the bulb is more around 360W since it's a conversion bulb for a high-pressure sodium setup. My wife had used it when she was cultivating indoor plants, and it's since been in storage. I thought it would retrofit nicely into the reef tank since it shares the same spectrum as is recommended for reef inhabitants.
I've also looked at chillers (being that I'm in California... nasty hot summers we have), but I think I need to do a bit more research before I take the dive off that pier.
I had planned on keeping the light at least 8-12" above the top of the tank to keep the heat to a minimum and using axial fans for ventilation. I remember all too well just how hot that lamp can get (and think I still have the scars to prove it). The fluorescents were mainly to use during midday when room temperature creeps above 80 degrees so as to not overheat the tank unnecessarily, but it appears that I need to do a bit more research on my lighting requirements before I make any more decisions.

Also, the blue-leg hermits are rumored to be borderline evil in the tank. They may kill your snails for their shells.

That's an interesting fact to know. Could I put extra shells in the tank to minimize this behaviour, or would I be fighting a losing battle?

mikeMersot said:

As far as the skimmer goes, the sea-clone is definately a pretty poor one, although it may suffice early on, I gaurantee you will be wanting something better soon, if possible I would try and return it and get either a CPR bakpak or an Aqua-C Remora.

I had also looked at these hang on tank PS's, but found just as many people either liking/hating them. I'm not sure if I can return it since it was an ebay purchase (doh!), but I have found sites dedicated to modding these skimmers to perform better. I'll have to play around with it a bit to see if it's going to work out for me, but if not, back on ebay it goes.

Also a MH will cover a 2' spread with direct intense light, so you will have a little bit of a lower light area on the sides, if you have a brace on the tank haing 1 light may be a problem. NO supplementaion is pretty much out of the question with MH, far too weak to notice, VHO would be best probably.

I had planned on hanging the MH in the center of the tank so the light-loving inverts would have a place to photosynthesize, while having the sides of the tank a bit dimmer for inverts that don't do as well in intense lighting. I'll take a look into VHO lighting at your suggestion. There is a brace in the middle of the tank, but it's clear glass and I didn't think it would pose too much of a problem. Am I wrong in assuming that?

Blue leg hermits can get aggressive, especially for shells, they will kill snails for them, they also get pretty bit, although some people may disagree, I think 100 is far too many in a 50 gal, I think snalis do more good than hermits for the most part.

I also thought that 100 hermit crabs sounded like a bit much, but TBS has a 'formula' page where they explain what each animal does, and how many it takes for each gallon of water... being the novice that I am I just nodded my head in agreement.

That deal does sound like a pretty good price though, almost too good.

I think they're able to offer such low prices because they are aquaculturing their own rock and aren't having to pay any middlemen for collection. The deal they offer is also only good for the "package" purchase, and the price goes up if buying the rocks/sand/critters separately.
The shipping also can get you if you aren't careful... we're going to have to drive to the nearest major airport (about 100 miles away) to take delivery of the shipment via air freight on a major airline or pay FedEx 2.70/Lb. for overnight shipping... definitely not a cost-conscious move.
As it is though, the LFS here in my area sell 'dead' Fiji rock (at least it looks dead to me) for $6.95/Lb, so getting the reef package from TBS even with shipping only comes out to be slightly higher than just buying the 'live' rock locally.

Harpo said:

The folks here are good at letting you know if you are ready for the next step as you progress. To move to fast in any area could mean the crash of an entire system.

Thanks for that bit of advice... I'm one of those people that likes to think I know it all, but I swallowed my ego for a little bit and decided to let it all hang out here and see what everybody thought.

Thank you guys for your warm welcome... it looks like I came to the right place.
David.

[big t]

You have my vote to hold on!!! Keep planning, definately plan on getting a sump b4 you start! This is definately one of my personal preferences but one that you will not regret. It is much easier to do the sump now rather than later. As far as that goes it is worth it to get the tank drilled in the back and have a overflow built into the tank. It is very easy to make your own overflow out of acrylic, or to have someone make one for you. The reasons that a sump are good; your main display water level stays constant, you can put your heater, skimmer, ph probe and other probes down there, it adds water to the total volume(stability), also if you have a sump it can be a sump/refugium where you can have a deep sand bet and macro algea to harvest to reduce nutrients in your water column. Wow long sentence. Also later if you need a chiller it can be plumbed into the pipework too. So if I was you plan on a sump Now as far as starting slow, there are many companies where you can get some good deals on drop shipped figi live rock, this would also be a good idea because the Figi rock is a lot nicer than aquacoultured rock and is less dense so less weight will go farther. I have seen it for around $3 a pound online. So this may be a better option for you. I would say get 50 or so pounds and see how far it goes for you, get it cycled and cured in your tank. If you decide that you need more rock, go for it. Then after it is cycled get a clean up crew, Snails are a good thing, lots of em. Astrea, nasarious, trochus, and couple conch's would be good I am not a big fan of hermits, they usually end up killing my snails, who I find more useful at cleaning. Then go from there and don't rush too much. I would plan on having a Deep Sand Bed (DSB) This adds a large amount of area that processes nitrates, so after it matures it is possible to have very low nitrates, if you have no nitrates it is less likely that you will be fighting with nasty algea down the road. The best material for a DSB is aragonite sand from what I have heard. You can get this stuff online for way better prices than localy, it is a good idea to see if anyone around your area needs some sand and then you can pool on the shipping. Wow my keyboard just quit working. Hmm as far as that skimmer goes, I have never seen one of those (seaclone)work very well. I picked up a second hand aquamedic turboflotor t1000 recently for $75 and it is doing a really good job! It pulls out all kinds of nasty crap and I havn't had to do much of anything besides put a air metering valve on it to adjust the air amounts. This place is a great source of info for ya, do lots of searches on subjects you have questions you have, and if you don't find what your looking for you will get some answers here if you ask. The archives are a good place to check out. Read tons of posts, books and online articles, then formulate your own opinions and decide what you think is best for you and go for it, there is several different ways to go about getting the same result (awesome reef tank) So good luck to ya, and welcome to the board

[mapster]

Wow, you haven't even set up your tank and already addicted! Its easy to see your not diving in too quicky and are doing plenty of research, good to see. Keep it up.

As for you proposed set-up:

400w Metal halide may be a bit of overkill, especially in a mixed tank (sps, lps, & softies). If you do use that amount of light, I would suggest, not only mounting them 8 - 12" off the surface and providing plenty of ventalation via fans, but also creating cliffs and over hangs in your rock work. This will allow you to keep soft & lps corals in diffused light that would otherwise be "burned" by the intense light of the Halides.

Wavemakers, in theory, are a good idea. But the negatives (noise of pumps turning on every few second, less flow from pumps, shortened life span of pumps, etc.) are something you may want to look into further. A viable altenative would be have you pumps arranged as so the currents intersect, creating turbulant, varied water flow.

Another suggestion would be to not get the Seaclone skimmer, instead purchase the Remora Pro. Without modifications the skimmer is sub-par. Why not get a skimmer that, right out of the box, out-preforms even the modified Seaclone? I have met few people who have not been satisfied with the remora pro. I had one on my old 120 and it preformed well. I can only imagine its preformance on a tank more than half that size! I honestly think you will be upgrading or modifying the Seaclone soon enough and it would be best save money and time on a better skimmer from the get go. Having a shotty skimmer will cause so many more problems than just needing to spend money to upgrade.

anyway...

As for the Reef Package. Adding 100lbs of LR toa tank that size will cause the tank to cycle and effectively kill all those animals that come with it. I would suggest adding the live rock first, let the tank cycle and then add your clean-up crew. 50lb of live sand, in your case, may not be woth the money. I would suggest adding a bed of fine grain aragonite @ about 4"- 6". The LR should "seed" the sand with critters, eventually. Maybe your buddy could get some sand from the tank he was "sitting", with the owners permission of course. A small ziplock bag full added to your sand bed would help establish the bed.

Lastly, I promise, look into the option of a sump. Not having one was a decision I regretted for the life of my tank. A sump adds so much flexability. Its a great place to hide heaters, if you do need to add chiller you almost need a sump. More skimmer options, a convenient place to add supplements, easier water changes, added flow from the returns, etc. Also, if you do plan on keeping clams or sps copral you may choose (or need) to add a calcium reactor or kalk reactor and a sump is the best (or only) way to do that.

Sorry for the length, I dont want to sound like Im telling you how its done. these are mearly suggestions. There is no one way to do things and all systems are unique. Judging by your first few posts it sounds like your on your way to a successful (and beautiful) reef tank, enjoy!

MAP

[mapster]

Sorry if Big T's and my post sound repetative, we must have been typing at the same time.

great minds think alike , and at the same time of night

[Jello]

I set up a 75 gallon aquarium several months ago, and I have 40 pounds of figi and 40 pounds of Marshall Island rock. My tank is pretty full of rock since it is fairly porous, and the little bugs and fishes have lots of places to play and hide. I bought it (cured) from Premium Aquatics and paid a little over $500 (with shipping right to my door). Here is an old picture, I've rearranged some since then, but you can get an idea of what 80 pounds looks like in my 75:




So, basically, if you get rock that is less dense you don't have to buy as much. Which saves money on rock and shipping. I don't have any crabs, just some snails that I picked up from the LFS for $10.

I also agree with the sump recommendation. I don't have halides, so I can't chime in there. But I did once have a 'tall' aquarium for freshwater and I didn't like it. Fish usually like to swim back and forth, not up and down. So the upper area of the tank wasn't used as much. Also, aquascaping is a lot easier when you have more length and width. I would think if you try to pile rocks too high it would increase the risk of them falling over.

I don't know the reasoning for having a tall tank, but if you decide to add a sump and have an overflow installed, you might want to consider just getting a 55 reef ready tank instead. Or if you are exited about clams, maybe you can get a lower height aquarium and put a halide pendant over it. Then you can look in from the top and see the clams really well. There is an example of a 50-gallon clam lagoon in 'Natural Reef Aquariums' by Tullock. Though I wouldn't recommend a yellow tang for a tank that small.

In general, it's best to set things as best as you can right from the start. It's a big pain to change or move things later.

[Alice]

Welcome to The Reef Tank

You're getting lots of good advice and commentary, and as everyone has mentioned, no two systems are the same and only you will be able to decide exactly what is going to work best for you in the way of plumbing, lighting, tank size etc.

Just a couple of comments about the rock and clean up crew, if I may. Aquacultured rock is a great concept and the FL rock is often covered with color, small corals and many little bonus critters, some desirable and some definitely not desirable. It seems to have a high population of mantis shrimp. The FL rock I've seen has been heavy and blocky and would have not been my choice for my tank. 100 lbs of FL rock will fit in your tank but I'd bet for pleasing asctetics, you'll end up buying some Marshall, Fiji or Tonga for some interesting aquascaping. Marshall rock is so much lighter per piece, that if you bought a 100 lbs it wouldn't even fit in your tank.

As already mentioned, you won't be able to add your clean up crew to your tank yet, the tank will be cycling with the live rock and your critters may not survive. If you do decide to go with TBS, see if they will send your clean up crew and live sand after the tank has cycled. BTW, I agree on the amount of live sand. If you've got a buddy with a tank, you've already go access to live sand, a few lbs will get you started Anway I don't think much of the clean up crew package. #1, way too many hermits and not enough snails, #2 you won't need 2 cukes in your tank and they can be touchy to less than ideal water conditions-I'd wait on them until the 4-6 month mark. Serpent stars are very sensitive to salinity changes, make sure you have your evaporation rate and make up water routine down pat before adding them and acclimate them to your tank water very slowly. And as for the pistol shrimp, even one in a tank can dig a complex of tunnels under your rockwork that can bring the whole thing tumbling down, two of them, well, that's going to be interesting.

I'm sorry to sound so negative! I'm not picking on your, nor even TBS; many of the package deals available from online vendors for clean up crew just make no sense to me. I have a suspicion they go heavy on the hermits because they get them dirt cheap.

Just more things to think about and just my $.02

Alice

[Reefer Addict]

Right on, more feedback...

big t said:

Now as far as starting slow, there are many companies where you can get some good deals on drop shipped figi live rock, this would also be a good idea because the Figi rock is a lot nicer than aquacoultured rock and is less dense so less weight will go farther.

That's something I hadn't thought of. I assumed 'aquacultured' rock was about the same density as Fiji rock. I'll look around a little more and see what I can come up with.

Hmm as far as that skimmer goes, I have never seen one of those (seaclone)work very well. I picked up a second hand aquamedic turboflotor t1000 recently for $75 and it is doing a really good job!

I had also looked at these but they were fairly expensive (first-hand). From what I've gathered about the SeaClone, their main deficiency is that their little 'cyclone' doesn't produce enough small bubbles. The mod page I mentioned says that you just need to trim the internal tube where the water/air mixture enters the skimmer so the bubbles spread faster. I'll have to check it out when I get it, but it appears that the SeaClone doesn't have many supporters here.

mapster said:

Wow, you haven't even set up your tank and already addicted!

Yeah, it's like heroin... just get a little taste and you're done for.

As for the Reef Package. Adding 100lbs of LR toa tank that size will cause the tank to cycle and effectively kill all those animals that come with it. I would suggest adding the live rock first, let the tank cycle and then add your clean-up crew. 50lb of live sand, in your case, may not be woth the money.

The way TBS instructs you to set up your tank is exactly like you mentioned. They actually ship out the package in two separate shipments, the first being half the live rock and the live sand bed. Once the tank cycles, they send the remaining rock and the other creatures. The more I read your guys feedback though the more I'm leaning toward going a different route.

Jello said:

Here is an old picture, I've rearranged some since then, but you can get an idea of what 80 pounds looks like in my 75:

Wow, 80 Lbs. sure covers a lot of area. Thanks for the picture, since it puts things in a little more perspective... It's tough to visualize the rock poundage without actually seeing it.

I also agree with the sump recommendation.

So that's an almost unanimous vote on the sump so far.
If I were to go with a sump, would a 10 Gallon tank be sufficient?

But I did once have a 'tall' aquarium for freshwater and I didn't like it. Fish usually like to swim back and forth, not up and down. So the upper area of the tank wasn't used as much. Also, aquascaping is a lot easier when you have more length and width. I would think if you try to pile rocks too high it would increase the risk of them falling over.

I've had both types of aquariums, and have found that I kinda prefer the 'tall' versions of them rather than the 'long'. In this case I also wanted to have room for piling rocks while also having quite a bit of top height for coral growth without risking them breaking the surface of the water.

I don't know the reasoning for having a tall tank, but if you decide to add a sump and have an overflow installed, you might want to consider just getting a 55 reef ready tank instead.

Well, after shopping every LFS here in town there were none that carried 'reef ready' tanks. They had a few acrylic tanks, but I can't stand acrylic tanks due to their ease of scratching. The LFS also wanted twice as much for an acrylic tank as they did for the one I purchased. I can probably retrofit the plumbing for the sump drainage/return in an 'over-the-lip' style rather than going straight through the back of the tank. It'll be something else I need to figure out, but luckily I love problem solving.

In general, it's best to set things as best as you can right from the start. It's a big pain to change or move things later.

Agreed. It's also a lot less expensive in the long run (from prior experience).

Thanks again for your guys advice, I'll check back later.
David.

[uurt]

David, welcome.
Ask, read, read, read, ask, then repeat the process.
Best advice that you'll find here.
anyway, you asked about adding extra shell to the tank for the crabs. I have 1 blue leg and thought of that route. It worked for 1 day, the next day I had a dead snail and ther crab had another new shell. It does "pester" the snails (spcialy the bigger turbo's) but only when they seem to be on the way out. I do seem to have crappy luck with my turbos.
Good luck and again
WELCOME.

Lee

GO RAIDERS!!!

[wildthings44]

I have problems with snails too, but then I have about 10 crabs in my tank. I have lots (and I mean LOTS!!!) of shells in there, and they really don't have to fight for them, the only fighting is when the on lefthad crab goes on his dominance kick and starts thumping the smaller bluelegs. I usta' have snails, but they have all dissapeared...

[Jimbo]

Hi Welcome

I wonder about the MH light that you are getting that is a HPS adaption. Most people want at least a 6500k bulb and many opt for a 10,000k bulb. A 4500k-5500k bulb is quite yellow. You definitly need several hundred watts of actinics bulbs to equalize out the color more into the blue. Most people like ice white light. You might be happier getting a dual 250 watt setup. With an actual MH ballast your options are greater.

A 20 gal sump / refugium would be a nice addition. A refugium is a place to grow algea and copods (little bugs) that feed your main tank. The macro algea growth helps to maintain low nitrate and organics. My skimmer hardly does anything anymore because I believe of my sand bed and refugium. You would use half of the 20 gal for your refugium.

All those hermits are definitly an overkill, I have two blue legs in my 40g, plus about 25 various snails. I have no to little hair algea. My biggest problem in my tank is macro algea.

Overall it sounds like you are off to a good start. You can modify the seaclone and after your tank settles in the skimmer maybe less important anyway if you opt for a refugium. This all depends though on the type of animals you have and how often you want to feed.