newbie convert

snazlord · 03-19-2003, 11:10 PM

Hello all! This is my first post. I've been browsing TRT for the past two weeks or so - this is truly an amazing community!

Anyway, here's my deal. My first freshwater aquarium was 9 years ago (10 gallons); had that for two years then upgraded to a 38 gal AGA freshwater for 5 years. Two years ago I decided to try a marine aquarium (fish only). I was somewhat intimidated about the prospect of "going marine," and so didn't want to invest a lot of money before I was sure I could actually do it. The bottom line was that I simply used the same 38 AGA, used the same undergravel filter (with about 1.5" CC), used the same aquaclear 200 filter hanging on the back (basically for the activated charcoal), and that's all. No live rock, no live sand (because the LFS didn't mention it, and i didn't know any better. I bought a lot of ornamental coral skeletons from the LFS for decoration, and some tufa rock.

I keep the spec grav at 1.020 (what the LFS recommended), temp at about 78 F. Once a month I've been removing all the ornamental coral skeletons (which get covered with brown and green alge) and soaking them in bleach overnight, then rinsing them/soaking them in water overnight before replacing them in the tank. Removing the ornamental corals allows me to vacuum all of the CC with a 20-25% water change. I've been using tap water for replacement.

I have a yellow tang, a tomato clown, a purple pseudochromis, a coral beauty, and a small picasso trigger.

Things have been going well (i have lost some fish over the past two years but things seem pretty stable now)

I'm going to be moving in about 2 years to a more permanent residence (i.e. single family home versus the apartment-style condo we're in now) and would like to start a nice reef tank from scratch when I move.

BUT in the meantime... (think i'll continue in another post as this is getting pretty long)

snazlord · 03-19-2003, 11:26 PM

In the meantime, I'd like to familiarize myself with some of the equipment and issues relating to reeftanks, as well as help out the fish in my current tank.

I was considering adding a sump underneath my tank (in the stand). Presumably I could do this without disturbing the main tank. Initially the sump would be empty; just more volume. Then I 'd like to add a sandbed to the sump. I assume that the sandbed in the sump would get colonized fairly quickly with nitrification bacteria (i.e. those living in my current UGF, metabolizing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate). I would then have two redundant biological filters. Would this then allow me to gradually remove the CC from the undergravel over, say, a week or so, until it is literally all gone (i.e. only a bare UGF plate left) at which point I could just lift off the UGF plate, siphon out whatever is under it, and then add a real DSB? I could even add some macroalge to the sump (with appropriate lighting).

My reasons for doing this (besides gaining experience prior to my investing in a new reef tank from scratch) is that removing all the ornamental coral to vacuum the UGF once a month is a pain and more importantly stressful to the fish. I realize that I'd still have to do monthly water changes (because the fish produce a lot of waste that the DSB may not keep up with, I think), but I at least wouldn't have to vacuum all the gravel every month. I could also add a skimmer to the sump at a later date.

I'd also consider adding some liverock, though I'd probably have to upgrade the lighting. (only have one NO flourescent bulb in the AGA hood currently)

Has anyone changed out a UGF like this?
I read a few posts here on that subject; most suggested removing all the fish to aerated buckets, re-cycling the tank, etc. I wonder if my redundant biofilter by adding a sump idea would allow me to do it all "on the fly" with the fish in the tank?

Many thanks to all who take the time to read this rambling post!

wildthings44 · 03-20-2003, 10:47 AM

Welcom to TRT!!!

I have to say I am pretty much a newbie too. I was told to stay away from UG, most likely 'cause I was going to a reef and had too fine a sand...
I would deffinatly recomend some live rock, cured live rock would be the best, but as I said I am not the greatest of people for info... I did what you did and started with LFS. I was lucky in that one of them had a guy that knew what he was talking about most of the time. Live rock is much better then dead coral and you won't be bleaching it out all them time (at least I hope not!!!

) which puts your fish at risk for poisoning...
Anyway good luck and welcom to the fount of knowledge!

snazlord · 03-20-2003, 11:34 AM

thanks for the welcome. yeah, i suppose the bleaching is pretty much heresey around here. I may or may not continue with that, but without an undergravel filter at least i wouldn't have to remove most everything in the tank just to have access to the gravel for vacuuming!

another point i've been wondering about:

- would a DSB be able to keep the nitrates down in my tank enough to be able to eventually add some "critters/clean up crew" to the sand? (i understand they don't like nitrates)? Or would the fish in my tank way overload the capacity of a DSB to process the nitrate they indirectly produce?

Geoff · 03-20-2003, 11:48 AM

Welcome!!!

you will need to get rid of the UG filter. a mature DSB would be able to keep up with a properly stocked reef tank (how is that for dodging). along with a fair amount of cured LR. i would put a sump/refugium in the tank down belwow. i would put a DSB in this tank, if the flow is not to fast. at the very least i would put macro in it.

your trigger may be a problem if you are going to try and put it in a reef tank. it would love to eat all of your clan up crews.

if you start by removing the UG filter, setup the sump/refugium with a DSB, and add lots of cured LR i think you will be on your way. adding a DSB in the display is again up for question with some. i have one and i like it, but then again mine is very new.

again welcome,

G~

snazlord · 03-20-2003, 05:55 PM

yes, i think i will start by setting up the sump, removing the UGF and adding a DSB/refugium to the sump. I'll partition the sump so the intake/outflow doesn't disturb the DSB/refugium.

regarding the trigger, do you think i could eventually add the clean-up crew to the DSB in the sump? Would they live and breed there and repopulate the sand bed in the main tank to keep up with the trigger's appetite? Or would they starve in the sump because all the detritus would be in the main tank not the sump (or could i overcome this by having enough water circulation to suspend most of the detritus in the water column so that it gets to the sump).

Hermit · 03-20-2003, 09:14 PM

Welcome to TRT, Snazlord! This sounds really familiar to me. About two years ago I began the SLOW transformation from the sterile, bleachable, FO tank to a pseudo reef (DSB, LR, Shrooms, Xenia, and inverts). It is a loooong process that requires a lot of patience to keep from ruining everything.

I really like your sump idea as the second filter. I went to a penguin HOB. I left it on for a few months before removing the UGF. I did it in one day. It was stressful, but all my fish survived. Afer syphoning the water into tubs to reuse, I pulled out the fish, undertook the messy process of removing most of the CC, added the sand, let it settle for a while, then readded the fish. I then did no water changes for a month to let things try to get back to normally. I will worn you, it is much more difficult and patience oriented to change over a tank, IMO. I'm still not there yet.

HTH, Kris

Geoff · 03-20-2003, 10:33 PM

the trigger would eat the algae-clean up crews. the hermits and snails. the critters in the substrate would be safe from the trigger unless they went for a swim, but they generally do that at night when the trigger is asleep. you can add a refugium kit to the sump no problem and it would breed and do well. i actually recommend it.

triggers are tough in a reef just because they like to eat anything. plus they have the weaponry do succeed at eating everthing.

G~

snazlord · 03-20-2003, 11:41 PM

Hermit, glad to hear someone else has sort of done this before. Forgive my ignorance and/or stupidity, but why did you have to put the fish in buckets when you removed the UGF? Is it just because the sand/silt/detritus gets stirred up so much that the water gets cloudy and nasty? I thought that if I could just carefully scoop out the CC with a net, possibly only doing a few scoops at a time over several days so as not to stir up too much nastiness, that i could get away with leaving the fish in the tank the whole time. (Once the sump/DSB has matured)

Then to add the sand, I'd use the very sensible idea of i can't remember who on these TRT boards of getting a funnel attached to a length of PVC pipe to slowly drop the sand thru the funnel/pipe directly to the bottom of the tank so it doesn't cloud up everything.

Is this maddness? Is it just plain impossible to do this without stirring up so much poo as to suffocate my poor aquatic friends? Must I relegate them to buckets with powerheads/airstones for several hours?

And Geoff, thanks for the advice. One question about the critters in the sump - do they need light? obviously if I add macroalge then I'd need to light the sump, but if I only have a DSB with critters, do I then still need light?

snaz

Geoff · 03-21-2003, 08:36 AM

a light would be good, nothing fancy is necessary. i have a $30 lights of america on my 45 gallon sump/refugium. just about any light will work as long as it is in the sunlight spectrum. if you have an old aquarium light that would work great also. a light just gives you more options with ph control (on or off cycle lighting). you generally will also get a more diverse group of critters.

G~

CAT · 03-21-2003, 08:59 AM

Sounds like your set-up is basically a fresh water tank with salt water fish. Warning... It will be costly to convert to a reef-type set up.

You'd need L.r., sand, maybe more powerheads, the refugium and better lighting. Also, an overflow for the fuge, and maybe a skimmer. The upside is that you won't ever have to pull the 'dead' decorations out to bleach them, or vacuum the crushed coral substrate again...

I would do the overhaul all at once. Imo, the biggest danger is messing around with the substrate -it can release all kinds of nasties and dirt when you dig into it.

I think the idea of adding a refugium first is good so that you have the biological filtration going before you tear apart the tank. That should take care of any water quality concerns (if you're careful with feeding for a little while). When you're sure the fuge is stable and working I'd disconnect it, then just tear down the main tank and start again. Lots of new water, lots of buckets and lots of time.

I'd also take the trigger and exchange it at the lfs for something else -these guys get really nasty/destructive as they get bigger...

Just my .02 cents worth

snazlord · 03-21-2003, 11:07 AM

CAT, I appreciate your two cents. And you're absolutely right! I do basically have a freshwater tank with saltwater fish in it.

I do in fact plan on starting completely from scratch, only I'd like to delay that until I finally move into a more permanent residence (in about two years). I basically don't want to spend a lot of time/money on a totally new setup, only to have to tear it all down in two years. I'd rather make a few slow, small changes to my currently set up just to see if I can really do it, "get my feet wet," etc, then once I have that experience, do the real thing once I've moved.

I think I'm going to look into various DIY sumps to custom fit one under my tank stand, then if that goes OK, possibly a DIY skimmer. (cheap, fun, good experience)

(or possibly, time-consuming, expensive, deathly to the tank, and water all over the condo)

Goeff, when you say "any aquarium light" for the sump, do you mean even one NO flourescent? (which is what I already have on the main tank - I could upgrade that and move that below)

snazlord · 03-21-2003, 11:27 AM

this is what i'm thinking my sump will look like.

anyone had any luck with a sump like this?

Geoff · 03-21-2003, 11:48 AM

yes, that NO flourescent can do fine in the sump/refugium. you just want to supply light for the algae to grow. IME i have seen that low to medium light gets the macro growing great. my high light tends to make the macro run for the holes in the LR.

that sump/refugium looks like a good example. i would get rid of the bio-balls completely and use the floss only after you clean the tank to remove detritus.

if you have not guessed by my website i like the DIY option whenever possible. i like to work with acrylic now.

G~

snazlord · 03-21-2003, 12:50 PM

Goeff, love the website. I'm eagerly awaiting the DIY section! And also, it's nice to see a fellow mac user out there. Love the macquarium!

My first computer was a mac SE, which I still have in a box in a closet. I've considered the macquarium idea, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

where do you get the acrylic? can you just figure out what you need, then order the pre-cut pieces (for the sump, i mean) on line, then just buy some epoxy and put the thing together at home?

with regard to the sump diagram, i wasn't going to use any bioballs or mech filter (i have a HOB aquaclear 200 for mech/carbon filtration which i'll just keep using - also helps with circulation), just maybe some activated charcoal.

newbie convert

newbie continued...