New fish deaths

[Elvis]

I ordered some fish and corals mail order to arrive over the weekend. It turned into a disaster. I got a couple of tangs, a lawnmower blenny, some flame wrasses and a couple of corals.

I acclimated the fish for 2-3 hours slowly adding water from my tank to plastic containers holding the fish. I released the fish into the tank (125 reef with a purple tang, some leather corals, 140 lbs of rock, assorted crabs and 3 cleaner shrimp). Everyone seemed fine for a couple of hours. The wrasses bugged out and hid but are still alive. The tangs swam around. The blenny hung out on the bottom, moving around the rock. No fighting. I was thrilled.

That evening things started going bad. The two new tangs (but not the purple tang already in the tank) and the lawnmower blenny started swimming near the top of the tank. They were acting like they were feeding off of the surface, and breathing hard. One by one they started to succumb over the next few hours. First they'd drop to the floor, then they'd die. A powder blue first. A yellow tang next. The lawnmower blenny last.

I couldn't think of any reason that there should be a problem with the tank params, but still checked all of my tank levels. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate all zero. SG 1.022. Alk, 3.5 mlq/l. I had also received some mexican turbo snails in the shipment that were technically "alive" after a few hours but that did not move and are on the way out if not already gone.

The fish reaction looked like some sort of poisoning or reaction to low oxygen but why would my existing fish be fine (he exhibited none of the symptoms of the others)while the others clearly were not?

What could have caused oxygen depletion (I did a small 5 gal water change but agitated the water for about 6 hours before doing it).

Would a bunch of algae in the tank cause the problem (if anything I would think this would add oxygen rather than deplete it)

What else could have caused the problems?

I feel terrible about this. I'm 99% sure that the mailorder folks didn't do anything wrong (I've ordered from them in the past with lots of success - the purple tang came from them well over a year ago)... I'm leaving their name out of this b/c I don't think they are responsible. They've offered me a credit for the fish that died but I want to be sure that I'm not the culprit before accepting.

If shipping was the problem why did the fish come out ok then tailspin several hours later? At last check the flame wrasses (at least the one I can see) are still alive but are pretty well hunkered down in the tank as they have been since introduction. I'm not sure if they are suffering from the same problem or are just nervous-nellies.

Any and all suggestions/questions are welcome (wanted)... Thanks.

Man thats really a bummer. How far and how long was the livestock in transit? There seems to be two schools of thought re: aclimation. The slow steady drip that I, like many others use and the float em and dump them method used by some aquarists and a lot of LFS.
The slow method I find works well esp with more delicate inverts, but I shop local not mailorder so transit time is usually under an hour and I always have them measure SG from the tank I am buying from. I then ballpark my drip period depending on differences and sensitivity of the critters( snails and echinoderms drip longer than most fish need)
The reasoning behind the float and dump method is that when fish are bagged up, CO2 from respiration starts slowly dropping the pH in the bag. As ammonia is put off from the gills and urination the lowering pH reduces the toxicity. Ammonia is much more toxic at pH 8.2 than at 7, which is why the fish don't die in a very short time in the bag. Anyway
as the sealed bag is opened CO2 escapes to some extent, coupled with adding new water at the higher typical pH will increas the ammonia in the bags toxic effects. Over a couple hours or longer severe damage to gills and other organs may occur. This can explain the new fish in respiratory distress while the old fish are unaffected.
Its kind of a trade off, pH and SG shock vs. ammonia toxicity which seems to be to worst of the 2 evils. So basically its float and equalize the temp and get them out of the old water asap. FWIW this is not a universal practice. There was a long thread regarding this subject last year on RC and I'm sure other boards and I notice this is the method used at the LFS I frequent. Another LFS used the drip method on new arrivals, and I got the impression from talkin to a former employee that losses were fairly high esp among more delicate animals. HTH some, its the onlly thing that sticks out in my head

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I thought I was me, but we were wrong
email: geeflipr@internetcds.com

[Elvis]

This certainly seems plausible.

The fish were in transit a relatively short amount of time for mail order (about 11 hours)...

One thing that I did notice was a big difference in SG between the bag water (maybe 1.017) and my tank (closer to 1.022).

Would it make sense to float/drip (basically what I did) but add an ammonia binder while floating?

I'd be slightly terrified of just dumping these guys in, basically skyrocketing the temp, pH, SG, etc for all of the animals. Then again, things couldn't have gone much worse than they did...

I just got a report from my wife. The one flame wrasse that we knew the location of doesn't seem to be there... A recovery perhaps? I'll keep my fingers crossed but I'd be shocked if all turns out well.

[Rick O]

Elvis,

Sorry to hear about your loss. I know it's probably too late now but I would be interested in knowing what the difference in ph was. I once lost a seemingly healthy fish after three days in my tank and the only thing I could come up with was ph shock. The LFS said my ph was 8.0 (it tested 8.2 with my test kit), and theirs was 8.3. I don't know if this was an accurate explanation or not but I could come up with nothing else.

Rick

[bill-e]

Elvis,

I, like Doug, subscribe to the drip method of acclimation, but then again, my livestock is never in the bags more than 2 hours. I think if I was going to mail order fish (I hope it never comes to that) I would probably modify the drip vs dump and float, then do a couple of quick cups of water in the bags, then dump. I'd keep the acclimation to under 30 minutes once the bag was opened.

And Rick O, no way is 8.0 to 8.3 a shock. Many tanks see a .3 swing daily. And though I wouldnt suggest it, I bet you could dump fish without acclimation (all other things being equal) with no harm. .3 just isnt that big a differential IMO.

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Bill Esposito
bespo@cereal.mv.com
JAqua for the AquaController 2
http://cereal.mv.com/jaqua.html
My Reef Page
http://cereal.mv.com/reef
The box said "Use Win 95 or better", I chose better so I run OS/2!

[Elvis]

I actually didn't measure the pH or the temp in the bags just cause it was kind of a hassle. My thermometer had dropped to the bottom of the tank and I had my hands full just trying to get everybody out of bags and floating in bowls so I didn't measure pH. I did measure SG which apparently the company keeps low intentionally to ward of parasites, etc. The bags were on the order of 1.017 vs. my tank which was 1.021-1.022.

Next time I plan to be a little more scientific about it. I'll check pH and temp and probably ammonia to boot.

Anyone have any thoughts on adding the ammonia binder? I've never heard to do it, though I'm not quite sure why. At first blush it doesn't seem like a terrible idea given the toilet water that the fish is likely to be in when it arrive.

It's frustrating as hell. I'd love to get my fish from a LFS. There used to be one a town away that was very good that closed up to focus on ponds (interesting niche here in the Northeast). All I've got is a bunch of chains around that rhyme with Getco... Every now and them I sucker myself into getting a fish there feeling that the thing will have a better chance in my tank than there's... I've given it up again, at least for a while.

I'm going to e-mail the guy who sold them to me and find out how he acclimates (I think he goes the drip - or cup of water- method but I want to be sure).... If anyone thinks of anything else I'd love to hear it...

[blistexluv]

where in the northeast are you? you should be able to find one within a couple hours drive (unless you live in western pa). here in philly there are a couple.

Elvis, I have heard a few mentions of people using Amquel or similar, but I dont know how effective it would be. Probably most effective if used in the shipping water at the point of origin, rather than after the fact. I would be leary of experimenting with the dosage. Since I have been on well water for years I am not big on anti chlor or ammonia binders. Is there even an ammonia binder that really work well in SW, i know the zeolite based stuff doesnt. I guess if you seperated a gallon or so to drip acclimate and dosed that it might help. Not sure

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I thought I was me, but we were wrong
email: geeflipr@internetcds.com

[Elvis]

I'm north of Boston on the North Shore (for those familiar)... I haven't been impressed with anything that I've seen out of an LFS for a while. There used to be a good place in Cambridge that got bought out by the aforementioned chain. It stayed good for a while until all of the old people left.

There's a place in Portsmouth NH that's great for corals but the fish have been real hit or miss when I've been there. I haven't ever seen anything worth taking home, though I do visit very sporadically.

Other than that, I'm open to suggestions from anyone... I'd love to find a place nearby (or even within a couple of hours)...

[thlosey]

Elvis,

I grew up in Maine and I share your frustrations. There is one good LFS that I know of in Westbrook, ME. It is called "Aquatic Concepts" I think and they are very nice and have a decent selection. Rick, the owner is very active in reef clubs and knows a lot. A couple years ago I went into a nice place on US rt. 1 in Saugus called " PJ's pets" or something like that. It is on the right as you are heading south near the New England Mall. Hope this helps. If you or someone you know is looking for a new tank, I have a 75gal reef setup for sale. It is at my parents house in Maine. Email me if you are interested. Best fishes.

Ted

[Elvis]

Thanks for the info. I'll have to try out the place in Westbrook sometime... PJ's is hit and miss. I don't go there too often anymore. For a while they seemed to have a lot of turnover in the dept. When they had someone good things were great. When they didn't, well, you know. Maybe I'll pop in again sometime soon. They're certainly closer than Westbrook. The other that you should know about is the Little Shop of Pets in Portsmouth NH. They're on Rt 1 probably 5 miles south of the Portsmouth circle. As I mentioned before, they have great corals (particularly LPS who someone there has an obvious fondness for). I don't get there too often. Generally the fish have been in good shape when I've been there but they haven't really had a selection of things that I'd want to be dropping in my reef. It could be that I'm just hitting them right before they get a new shipment... Anyway...

I just got a whiff of good news. My wife just saw the bigger flame wrasse in the tank. He's still hanging in there, though still hiding out.

Here's a question to ponder. If you buy a $75 fish but never seem him, did you actually buy anything at all.... Regardless, I'm glad he's made it this far. When compared to his counterparts in the shipment it instantly qualifies him for the Worlds Strongest Fish Competition (soon to air on ESPN2 no doubt)...

[JennM]

FWIW, We use the float & dump (well not dump, more like scoop) method where I work. We float 'em for temperature, then remove them from the bag and water and place in our quarantine system. IMO we don't suffer huge losses, of course whenever 200 or so fish are shipped there are bound to be a few that don't make it, sadly, but for the most part, they travel well. Now, having said that, we keep our specific gravity on the low side too, about 1.017 in the two FO systems, and it's about 1.023 in our reef system. I'd bet that's in line with the supplier's parameters, but I've never checked.

At HOME, I use the drip method, because I KNOW my params are different than at work, my SG is 1.023 or 1.024 and if I buy a fish from the FO system I know there's a difference. However, I float for about 15 minutes and drip for about 15 minutes, not longer. Inverts I do longer, but not hours, perhaps an hour at most. Corals I don't drip, just float. Haven't lost anything yet (knocking on wood). The only losses I have had were mail order, and I got a linckia in PH shock, one very dead on arrival and one with one fin in the grave on arrival. The lone survivor from that order back in August is still doing fine in my tank, despite his arriving with torn fins and tail and several scales missing.

For THAT reason I'll never mail order again..I like to SEE what I am getting, I like to see its physical condition and know that it's eating.

HTH

Jenn

[WindWalker]

Little shop of Pets moved from the strip mall
and is now attached to Joker's Amusements. They are selling lots of dogs.
And...Unfortunatley...The great town of Portsmouth recently flushed the wells?!?!?!?!?! or some how contaminated/loaded the local water with a huge amount of phosphates causing an algae bloom 2nd to none, and an infestation of aptasia :-( There are some really stressed corrals right now.

There working on getting it back together, this is usually a reliable store.

[This message has been edited by WindWalker (edited 01-09-2001).]