long post ahead: new member

[thefatman]

hello all, I'm a newbie here, and looking for some help please. first off, as you'll tell from my questions, I am about to set up my first "salt water" tank. and I have a ton of questions. no doubt, the majority of you have already seen or answered these questions in the past, if there are current threads with the answers I seek, a link would be appreciated, and free the thread of redundant posts.

ok, so like I said this will be my first salt water tank, but I am not new to aquariums. I have currently 7 tanks in my home, all freshwater. I have 3-55 gallon tanks, 2-30 gallon tanks, 1-20 gallon tank, and 1-10 gallon tank. I have been successfully keeping freshwater tanks for about 6 years now. My prides are my Oscar tank and my shark tank. The Oscar tank has two orange Oscars that are about 6 years old and roughly 12" long. my shark tank contains three 4 year old iridescent sharks that are about 9" long, two 3 year old bala sharks that are about 7" long, and a variety of red tailed sharks, and rainbow sharks. The rest of my large tanks are community tanks wit ha variety of normal freshwater fish, my 10 gallon tanks are used solely for keeping a number of feeder comets for the Oscars.

however, it's time for some color!!!! one of my 55 gallon tanks was home to a 6 year old black shark who died last week. so I am thinking of trying out a salt tank. as a result of the "hobbies" being vastly different, I have a number of questions.

first, should I start out my first salt tank in the newly vacant 55 gallon tank, or should I transfer the residents of one of my 30 gallon tanks into the 55 and use the 30 as my salt tank?

next, I am receiving mixed answers on what I actually need to purchase for the conversion to salt, where hardware is concerned. I have been told I must purchase a sump, an extra holding tank, a skimmer, power heads, new filters, new lights, new tank tops, new gravel/sand, basically I have to replace everything but the tank. however, I have also been told that as a starter tank I can use the same filters and air pumps and light fixtures and just replace the actual light bulbs (I use fluorescent tubes) I was also told that I could use my rear hanging filters, as they have "bio-bags" ( a white material with carbon inside, and a sponge material in front of them) instead of a sump pump and a new filter.

I understand that I MUST use a sand substrate and live rock, but is it necessary to have corals and anemones? I would rather have a "fish" tank than a "reef" tank.

do I need to replace ALL of my water in the tank, or can I just add "salt" to it since the biological element of the tank is already stable. will I need to add any other chemicals to change the water properties to support salt fish? or will I have to drain the tank, and start totally from scratch? obviously I would love to be able to "add some salt, sand, and rock" (I know it's more complicated than that) and throw in my first few residents.

I'll be doing a lot of research before doing anything, but I am hoping to setup a community tank. (forgive me on incorrect common names, I've only done a day of research thus far) I'd like to have a pair of tomato clowns, a pair of maroon clowns, possibly a yellow tang or a blue tang, a bicolor angelfish, a royal gramma, a pair of yellow tail damsels, and a green mandarin (the plaid looking guy), and some snails

now, that's 11 hopefuls for a 55 gallon tank with no coral or invertebrates, so I'm thinking that should be ok. I have tanks with more fish than that, but they are fresh tanks, and I'm not sure of the major differences yet, in behavior patterns and needs of the salt fish.

naturally I'll be setting up the tank first, (hardware, sand, rock, chemicals, etc) before ever purchasing the fish themselves, so I have plenty of time to learn about what fish can live together in a community and what not, so really what I'm looking for right now are answers to the questions regarding the conversion of the tank.

do I REALLY need to buy ALL that stuff for starting off, or can I use what I have? MUST the water and biological elements be started over from scratch, etc.. also, I currently have hang on the rear type filters (whisper 3) if I remember correctly, the water flow is supposedly 600 gph, but that seems iffy at best, to me.

I think I'd better end my questions here...for now.... or nobody is going to answer any of them!! I appreciate ANY and ALL help or advice anyone can give before I move forward on this life changing project. I'm off to do more research now. Cheers.

[mapster]

Welcome to The Reef Tank thefatman!

I will try to answer some of your question and Im sure some others will as well. This is a great place to start! Searching through the archives and purchasing some of the books listed on this site will help a lot.

There are a few aproaches to setting up a fish only tank and ultimately how you set it up is your decision.

Now lets see if I can answer a few of your questions:

first, should I start out my first salt tank in the newly vacant 55 gallon tank, or should I transfer the residents of one of my 30 gallon tanks into the 55 and use the 30 as my salt tank?

I would say definitely go with the 55. One thing you will have to deal with in salt water is maintaining a constant specific gravity. As the freshwater evaporates the salt concentration rises, you will need to compensate by topping off with freshwater consistantly as to avoid large swings in specific gravity which can be stressful to the fish. As you know the larger the tank the more stable enviorment and being new to SW this will allow you a little more time to correct problems that may arise that you are not accustom to dealing with. The bigger the better.

next, I am receiving mixed answers on what I actually need to purchase for the conversion to salt, where hardware is concerned. I have been told I must purchase a sump, an extra holding tank, a skimmer, power heads, new filters, new lights, new tank tops, new gravel/sand, basically I have to replace everything but the tank. however, I have also been told that as a starter tank I can use the same filters and air pumps and light fixtures and just replace the actual light bulbs (I use fluorescent tubes) I was also told that I could use my rear hanging filters, as they have "bio-bags" ( a white material with carbon inside, and a sponge material in front of them) instead of a sump pump and a new filter.

Your probably hearing so many mixed answers because there are so many ways to do it. A sump is not absolutely necessary but is always a good idea. Aside from adding more volume to your over-all set-up, it gives you a handy place to put heaters, a skimmer (if you choose to use one), dose additives and the return from the sump could provide all the circulation you need in the tank. Having that extra space reduces the clutter inside the main tank. An extra holding tank, I assume, would be used as a quarentine tank. Before introducing new fish to the tank they would be first placed in the QT and examined/treated for disease. Im sure you famaliar with this concept so I want dwell on it, but it is always a good idea. Some people QT to protect their investment (fish aint cheap), some people don't for other reasons including added stress to the fish. A skimmer is a very imporatant peice of equiptment in a reef tank, but depending on you use of other filtration, may not be so important in a FO (fish only). Power heads are used for in tank circulation and to simulate currents as they occur in the ocean. How many you need depends on your final set-up. I dont think you will need new lights or light bulbs, the ones you have should be fine. Some people use hang on filters and some people rely on the filtration Ill try to explain below.

I understand that I MUST use a sand substrate and live rock, but is it necessary to have corals and anemones? I would rather have a "fish" tank than a "reef" tank.

Sand and liver rock are not a must, but, they are a great form of natural filration. It also looks a lot more natural than a bunch of dead, bleached coral skeletons and other artificial decor. I think a term you will see often is FOWLR (fish only with live rock). This type of systems relies on the LR (with or without a deep sand bed) as the main source of filtration. Many of these systems incorporate a protein skimmer for removal of algea causing nutrients. How LR (and deep sand beds) works as a natural means of filtration can be found in the archives section of this great website.

do I need to replace ALL of my water in the tank, or can I just add "salt" to it since the biological element of the tank is already stable. will I need to add any other chemicals to change the water properties to support salt fish? or will I have to drain the tank, and start totally from scratch? obviously I would love to be able to "add some salt, sand, and rock" (I know it's more complicated than that) and throw in my first few residents.

Personally, I would start from scratch. Patience is probably the most important thing in the beginning. You may want to look into RO water purifiers (reverse osmosis). Freshwater algea cant hold a candle to the algea breakouts that can occur in a poorly managed marine enviorment. Nitrate & phosphate levels will need to be kept a low a possible to avoid a masssive breakout. Starting with a pure source water is the first step of wining the battle. Fish should be added slowly and the tank should be stocked properly as not to overwelm your system.

I'll be doing a lot of research before doing anything, but I am hoping to setup a community tank. (forgive me on incorrect common names, I've only done a day of research thus far) I'd like to have a pair of tomato clowns, a pair of maroon clowns, possibly a yellow tang or a blue tang, a bicolor angelfish, a royal gramma, a pair of yellow tail damsels, and a green mandarin (the plaid looking guy), and some snails

More reserch will be needed in this department. A lot of those fish will not be comatable or suitable. In particular your tank may not be large enough for the very active tang and the manderin requires a large, mature tank to be able to meet its feeding requirements. A search through this site and a good book will better explain these fishes requirements and compatablity. Snails are a great defense against algea, lots of good info out there on these as well.

Im sure others will offer you more help and better explain how you can incorporate some of your existing equiptment. However you decide to set-up your tank, I wish you good luck and look foward to seeing the results. Read, read, read. Read as much as you can. Learn from other peoples experiences. There are some great FO set-ups in the tank specs section of this website. Take a look at those to get an idea of how others have set-up successful tanks.


MAP

[thefatman]

mapster, thanks so much for your advice.. you mentioned a few times "this great website" and GREAT it is!! I've been reading for the last three hours! I found the links for getting started and just went from there. and what do ya know, I even found an article on converting from freshwater!!

it looks like for starters, my most cost effective solution, is to use my existing equipment. It appears, and as you stated, a sump is not necessary, nor is a skimmer, particularly since I am going to start with a FO tank. (hey I even learned the difference between an FO and a Reef tank tonight! lol)

I'm going to use the currently vacant 55 as my starter. Right now that tank has an UGF using 4 up tubes, and a whisper 3, dual bag hang on filter. From what I've read thus far, it appears that the UGF is going to be useless once I replace the gravel with live sand. So I think I'm going to pull that and just throw it in the spare parts room (my spare parts have outgrown a closet over the years :-) I'm going to stick with the whisper filter for now, and perhaps later down the road, go with a sump type filter system.

I did some reading up on the power heads, and I think I'm going to install two, one at either end of the tank, facing each other, to get a good cross current and water movement. I found out the whisper 3 moves 350 gph, but I don't think that is a very realistic number, it's probably more like 150-200 gph. My water doesn't have very noticeable movement. So I'm going with the filter along with two power heads. or maybe even just one power head at one of the tank which would make for an interesting current when it intersects paths with the filter current.

based on what I've read, and your post, I guess I can stick with the same lighting as well, although I may opt for the marine blue light, I've read it gives the fish better color, but that small investment can wait till fish are introduced. and I'm going to add an additional heater as well. my heaters are all 300w submersibles and 1 per tank. but it looks like in a sw tank, it's best to have two heaters at opposite ends of the tank.

I still have A LOT of reading and research to do, but I'm hoping to get started on the tank within the next week or so. at least the water and setup, so I can get the biological element started. I have always preferred to rely on bio and mech. filters in my FW tanks. I guess I'm overly cautious about running a safe and healthy tank. all of my tanks have UGF's and HOF's and I do a 50% water change weekly on all of them. (though I'm reading that's not the best bet for SW tanks.) so I have to learn that whole new process too.

I started my first tank 6 years ago, and have steadily added more, whenever I get bored! but before I started I researched for a long time. and thankfully, I have never lost a fish. well, with the exception of "old age" I've been lucky enough not to have a case of ich, or a stressed tank. and all of my new purchases have always been 1 or 2 fish at a time, and I always wait a month before introducing more. also, I always let my tanks cycle for at least a month before adding a fish. and of course, always research on compatibility before adding fish to an existing tank.

I wish everyone knew the importance of research before starting a tank. I know I would have lost MANY fish had I not been as stringent as I was. as a result the "hobby" has been very satisfying for me, and I truly believe the age old myth that fish tanks lower blood pressure. I have tanks in every major room of the house, including all the bedrooms and the office. I love the sound of the water, and the sight of the fish moving, etc..

anyway, thanks again for your advice, and I'll certainly be here often. I intend to not only keep a log of the status of the tank progression, but more than likely I'll photo document it as well, since I'm a photographer by trade.

one final note: apologies to all for my long winded posts. I just like to explain everything as detailed as possible. I guess it's left over from my days as an army ranger. at any rate, once I get to the point of actually giving advice (as I do on many other unrelated forums) the long windedness, actually comes in handy :-)

[Jimbo]

I would also like to Welcome you to The Reef Tank.

If your like the rest of us, it won't be long until you want to keep creatures other than ones with vertabrates Just live rock can hold many interesting creatures and new life over the months to come. To watch such life forms grow and spread in your tank along with up's and down's of such ecological systems can be very fascinating.

Many of these life forms will not live or propogate with a high nitrate level in a marine system. Invertabrates just don't like nitrates. A vote for live rock as your filtration system. Not only does live rock help with the normal nitrate cycle it supplies areas of denitrification.

Although you can start off with nitrogen fixing wheels, fluidized beds and even an undergravel filter. You'll soon outgrow it, as the challenges to come will intrige you if not obsess you, thats if your like the rest of us. You'll soon junk your initial setup. If you use live sand as you proposed it will become dead as far as creatures go in a high nitrate enviroment. Although some creatures can handle high nitrates, most can't

Lighing plays an important role in a reeftank, but you really don't need that to start out. If you plan on eventually keeping invertabrates and live coral, then use Live Rock (LR) as your filter and spend the extra money to get a protien skimmer and a couple extra power heads for circulation. Make your fish load light at first, this will prevent the LR from getting sinked in nutrients. Down the road it will just grow unwanted algea and you will get frustrated, the only real fix for this situation is to dump your LR and buy new stuff.

Since you arrived at this site, I must think you have some desire to keep corals and invertabrates down the road. A pound of cure + a few $$$ now will save you much heartache and many $$$$ down the road.

[Jolio99]

Hey where are you located in Ohio? There is a really good all saltwater aquarium store in columbia station on royalton road. They have good prices on live rock and have A LOT of corals and fish. If your close you should check it out.

[Jolio99]

Hey where are you located in Ohio? There is a really good all saltwater aquarium store in columbia station on royalton road. They have good prices on live rock and have A LOT of corals and fish. If your close you should check it out.

[wildthings44]

Welcom to trt!!!
I just had to say that!
All I have to say is be careful... you start with one salt tank and end up with many... and it is the rare aquarist that doesn't eventually set up a reef. Just don't leave fresh behind... I still keep a discus/tetra tank. Besides I don't think I have ever heard of anybody keeping sharks that large sucessfully (fresh water sharks that is!) And that says alot for your love of the fish!
Good luck on your salt excursions!

[thefatman]

jimbo: yes, i'm sure that eventually i'll end up adding some invertabrates. i jsut dont want a tank that is totally packed top to bottom and front to pack with them and only has room for two or three fish. i want a good mix of the two. i read a few articles last night and got advice from a SW store today that i should use LS and LR for starting out, even if i never add invertabrates. they said alot of the fish wil lactually nibble at the LR. and of course, i'll be upgrading to a skimmer, sumps, etc.. as time goes on. i am jsut looking for the most cost effective way to get the tank started now. so i can test the waters so to speak.

jolio99: i am in toledo (northwest ohio, half hour south of detroit) we havea few SW stores in the area, i went to a few of them today and was impressed. In the past i have always dealt with only 1 FW store in the area. But my food and parts usually come from the chains we have (petco and pet supplies plus) unfortunatly the clerks there are not too keen on what they are talking about. my bet is most of them dont even have tnaks at home. they are jsut working an aftershool job! but our SW stores seem very knowledgable.

wildthings44: oh yes i'm prepared for more SW tanks as time goes along! same thing happened with my FW tanks. i started with one, to fill some extra space in my living room, and now they occupy every room in the house. and yes, i even have a 30 gallon tank inset in my bathroom walls :-) as for my larger fish/sharks. they all started out as babies, and have grown immensly. so i'm hoping that my attention to detail with them, and my strict maintenence routines will pay off in my endeavor to SW.

thanks so much for everyones warm welcome and advice. i can't wait to get started and keep the baord posted on my results.

[mapster]

One important thing I forgot to mention. If your tank has ever been treated with a copper medication (most have copper) it will cause problems down the road. Not so much if a FO but if you do decide to keep inverts/LR it down the road it will.

I know at the moment you are not planning on a reef ste-up, but once the tractor beam gets a hold of you its impossible to escape!

If it has been treated with copper you can try scrubbing and testing and scrubbing and testing, but it may not be possible to remove it, a new tank may be in order. But again a FO will be OK if there are traces of copper.

Can anyone comment on the effect copper will have on snails, if any?

Glad your finding all you answers, keep asking questions if you get stumped.

MAP

[mapster]

4 year old iridescent sharks

I had 2 in my last FW tank. I dont know how you could keep them that long. Maybe mine were just the 2 dumbest fish ever but every once in a while they would freak the heck out. They would swim about 90mph straight into the glass and knock themselves unconcious. They would float around until they woke up and do it all over again. They eventually killed themselves.

Did you have padded aquarium walls?

[thefatman]

nope. actually this tank has never been treated with ANY medication at all. when this tank was originally setup, i used 50% water from an established tank, and filter bags from an established tank, and boom it was already cycled :-) the only time i ever had to use medication was my very first tank to cure an ich breakout, and thankfully never lost the fish.

my tanks are and always have been chemical free, except for the first tank. i'm hoping to be able to provide the same quality to the SW fish :-)


and yes, i already feel that tractor beam gettin hold of me, and unfortuantely i think picard is on the bridge, so i've got no chance of breaking free.

[thefatman]

Originally posted by mapster
I had 2 in my last FW tank. I dont know how you could keep them that long. Maybe mine were just the 2 dumbest fish ever but every once in a while they would freak the heck out. They would swim about 90mph straight into the glass and knock themselves unconcious. They would float around until they woke up and do it all over again. They eventually killed themselves.

Did you have padded aquarium walls?

lol yeah irri's are famous for that. they are very active and very fast, so tend to slam into the glass. mine have never been too bad about it. although they are pretty good and ramming my hand during cleaning. i've been lucky in that they have never knocked themselves out. although anytime i added a new tank mate, they were sure to play dead for a few hours. two of mine are albino and one is "black" when i got them they were all of about 2 inches long, and are currently about 9 inches now. i was warned they'd be hard to care for and are extremely sensitive to water conditions and stress, but they have done well through two moves in 6 years, and two tank upgrades. they are jsut about ready for new tanks though. i have all three of them in a 55 and they are jsut running out of room. i can't bear to sell them so it looks like i'll have to get probably a 125 long tank for them to have adequate swimming room..

HEY!!! that frees up another 55 for my next SW tank!! lolol

[aLittletank]

If I understand correctly… you want a FOWLR system (fish only with live rock) to start.
Good choice. This will let you get your feet wet with salt and then you can take on more challenging things when you feel you are up to it.

The first question about your tank (55 gal) was it EVER EVER ever dosed with chemicals for ich on your freshwater fish? If so you might want to consider a new tank. If that applies to you just ask why and someone here will answer.


Minimum equipment (if I was doing a FOWLR)
$70 Tank (drilled) local glass shops can drill your tank

$35 Surface skimmer
$5 Sump (Rubbermaid container is fine, if you have the cash then go for a custom job)
$20 Heater
$70 Return pump
$300 Skimmer Here is the one area I would spend the extra cash buy a good one now, it will hurt the wallet
but it will save you cash in the long run VS buying junk

$30 Lights, I would just put a couple 10k NO bulbs in for now to

$ 212 FijiLive rock 45 lbs (delivered from Ffexpress)

$742 then add on test kits and hose and salt ect ect


Not a cheap hobby, but I hope that helps


Allen

[thefatman]

no this particular tank has never had a single chemical added to it ever. the only chemicals are those that the city feels a need to ship to me along with my water lolol

aside from that, there may at some time have been something on some of the fish that were purchased from the stores, but that would be a miniscule amount and shouldn't matter. and there have been no new fish in this tank for 4 years. that was when the black shark was transferred to this tank. and he was the only inhabitant ever in it.

the rpices you laid out don't seem bad at all. i don't mind spending extra bucks on quality equipment. i've had very good success on all of my tanks, and my fish all have lived for a very long time, and i've managed to keep my tanks chemical free, due mostly in part to spending the money on quality equpiment that will last, and of course, doing lots of research before each new project.

i probably sound like a cheapskate, trying to figure what i can start without to save money. but it's not really like that. basically i just want ot be able to get the tank started now, and hten add in the required equipment later.

for instance, using the filters and lights i have now, getting the water and sand and rock started, and then in a few weeks, when my wallet recoops adding the skimmer, sump, etc.. but i would like to have sump/skimmer/etc.. in place before introducing fish. but i would never buy cheap stuff jsut to get by, because it will end up being replaced anyway. i jsut dont want to have to purchase everything on the same day.

btw: 212 for the rock? the price i got from one of our SW stores today was 1.75 per pound for cured live rock, all ready to go. actually after last nights research online, and todays at the store, i'm finding that it's not as expensive as i thought. i had pictured in the area of 2 grand to get the tank started. i imagined the sumps and filters costing me 300 or more each. so i'm happy to see it's considerably less.

btw: i wouldn't consider myself to be an animal rights freak or anything like that, but i do feel that if you are goign to take another animal in and puts it's life in your hands, you should do all you can to make sure it actually lives. i know people that buy fish left and right and pack the tank full then when the fish all die they are like "no big deal, it was only 40 bucks for all those, i'll jsut buy more!" that's why i do some research and ask so many questions. if i'm gonna do it, i want it done right, not for my own satisfaction, but for the life of the fish i'm buying.

fwi: i also have a 4' iguana (including tail) a miniature pincer, a 3 legged cat (found her in the woods caught in an animal trap, had her leg half chewed off so they amputated) the seven tanks, and a 20foot diameter koi pond outside my back door with fountain and waterfall, not to mention, a seven year old daughtrer lol. yes i love my animals :-)

[The_Equalizer]

thefatman,

i'm pretty new to the hobby as well, have only had salt water tanks for about a year now, let me tell you about some of the things i ran in too.

I first started in a 30 gal aquarium. I used live sand and 30lbs of live rock. along with a cpr bak pak protien skimmer and a whisper filter. I used the normal light in the aquarium as well.

After letting the tank sit for 2 weeks i had the water tested at my LFS and there was no ammonia nitrates or nitrites. I added a small picasso trigger and a small clown trigger (approx 6 inch of fish). I let the tank sit for a month or so and added a Koran Angel. After i added that last fish which pretty much ran my ammonia through the roof im guessing i couldn't keep any fish alive in the tank accept the picasso trigger. (Which now suffers from brain damage i think he is pretty psycho lol.) I also had a very difficult time keeping the salt at a constant level due to the size of the tank.

Luckily Santa brought me a 90 gal tank for christmas which i set up as a Fish Only with Live Rock tank. In this set up i'm running the following:

90 gal tank with overflow 300.00
Lighting - 48' shop lite from Lowe's 19.99
Actinic bulb 22.00
10k blub 22.00
20 gal sump tank
Rio 2500 return pump - 50.00
95lbs of live rock - 300.00
40lbs of live sand - 80.00
Coralife UV sterilizer - 100.00 (Great way to kill parasites, algae, etc.)
UV sterilizer pwerhead - 19.99

After swapping to the 90 gallon the only fish that i have had died was a diamond goby that was eaten by my trigger.