I Suspect Dangerous Chemistry

[ajham]

I think I'm in some kind of a downward spiral with water chemistry...

I've struggled with Nitrate levels in excess of 50 since I started this tank about three years ago. On occasion (before water changes), I'd see levels of 110.

I've been reading threads about nitrate levels, and after getting a couple of recommendations, I removed the bio-wheel about a month ago. I also removed the filter pads from the drawers of the tidepool (below). There were strong feelings from other members that just about anything in the sump can be a "nitrate factory". Also that the amount of LR should more than cover any bio filter needs.

The only thing I have in my sump, besides a heater, is the protein skimmer. To me, it doesn't seem like enough mechanical filtration but I thought I'd give it a try.

In addition, my PH levels have been slipping to less than 8, so I started using Kent Marine PH buffer.

The buffer has helped PH, but I think it's created a Phosphate spike.

Also, removal of the bio-wheel and the filter pads hasn't done anything to help the Nitrate condition. I test nitrate with Hagen and Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kits. All other parameters are tested with the Hagen reef test kit.

I know my protein skimmer is not performing the way it should so I've upgraded to the Kent Marine Nautilus with a Mag Drive 700. I hope to have it in by early next week. I'm also going to order a precise PH meter, instead of using a test kit. Color visuals are too difficult to translate.

To me, the real indicator that I've got problems is that I've lost all of my zenia and hairy mushrooms, my frog spawn has dropped a couple of shoots, my ricordeas are falling off the rocks slowly, and some of my mushrooms look just don't look healthy. The brain and green-star polyps look fine.

I've spent hours reading books, and sifting through threads on this awesome site, but I just don't have the interactive chemistry understanding to translate my conditions into meaningful corrective action.

I look forward to your guidance.
Andy

I've listed tank specs and a photo below.

Equipment
1)75 Gallon MarineLand Perfecto with Tidepool II Biowheel filtration
2)Protein Skimmer SeaClone
3)UV Sterilizer (run every three months)
4)440 Watt VHO with Ice Cap 660 Ballast
5) Three drawers in tidepool with blue bonded filter pad
6) 150 LBS of LR approx.

Maintenance
1)Age of Tank = 3 years
2)100% RO water changes and top off
3)10% water change 1/week; fresh water filter pad rinse
5)Periodic Strontium, Tech-M, Iodine
6) Kent Marine PH Buffer


Parameters
1)Test with Hagen Reef Test Kit
2)Specific Gravity 1.023
3)Ph 8.0
4)Nitrate 110 mg/L
5)Nitrite 0 mg/L
6)Calcium 520 mg/L
7)Iodine 0 mg/L (this has been consistently difficult to raise)
8)Amonia 0 mg/L
9)Phosphate 0.25 mg/L
10) KH 160 mg/L (3.2 mEq/L)

[ajham]

Below is what I have for Coral and Livestock. My first thread was too big to include...

Corals
1)Toadstool Mushroom Leather 12” diameter
2)Toadstool Mushroom 9” diameter
3)Toadstool Mushroom 2” diameter (not sure exactly what species)
4)Brain Coral 7-8” diameter
5)Frogspawn
6)Colony Polyp
7)Starburst Polyp
8)Pumping Xenia
9)Blue/Violet Mushroom
10)Hairy Mushroom
11)Ricordea Mushroom
12)Candy Cane Coral (two kinds)

Livestock
1)Ocellaris Clown 2
2)Blue Tang 1
3)Yellow Tang 1
4)Sailfin Blenny 1
5)Kaudern’s Cardinalfish 1
6)Reef Chromis 5
7)Serpent Sea Star 8” diameter 3
8)Astrea Snails 25-40

[JennM]

I'd second-guess the test kits. Try Salifert or Seachem. Xenia likes a bit of nitrate (not 110 ppm....).

When you water change are you vacuuming your substrate? What kind of substrate do you have? Do you blow the detritus off your rock? A filter pad in the tray during/after maintenance on the tank will catch particulate so you can remove it, but you may not want to leave it there all the time.

You'll see a huge difference when you replace the Clone with the Nautilus. Watch that collection cup, methinks it will fill up fast, at least initially.

Other than diluting those nitrates out with more aggressive water changes and what I've mentioned above, I can't think of anything else.

Jenn

Do you run any carbon? Could be chemical warfare between your corals that is causing them to fail. Carbon will help reduce this.

[ajham]

I believe the substrate was called aragalive, and it's a crushed coral? It was recommended at the time by my source for the tank. He's no longer in business, so I don't really have a nearby resource.

Regarding cleaning, I do vacuum the substrate at least every other week, and I do weekly water changes. This morning, my nitrate is 110, and I just did a 10+% water change on Sunday.

I've never seen anything on the LR that I thought needed vacuuming.

RE: carbon, I had only heard you could use it on occasion for "polishing", but you shouldn't use it constantly. Does this mean I put it in a tray for a week and then dump it? Maybe run once a month?

BTW, I've read many of your threads. Good stuff.

[dustin]

Hello,

I'll second Jens input on running carbon. Its cheap and can only help your water quality. It also looks like your not getting enough flow in their. Id have at least two large powerheads in a 75. Strong current, good skimming, and plenty of live rock with monthly water changes and you should see improvement.

Good Luck

[ajham]

When you say "second guess test kits", I've been considering buying certain meters, to replace the color coded test kits. What do you think is critical to upgrade besides PH?

Also, you don't have any alarm bells going off with use of PH buffer, resulting Hardness, and the spike in Calcium?

I forgot to mention I dosed with Kalwasser for a couple of weeks, but I stopped because I just thought my livestock looked worse.

[ajham]

Thanks. I forgot to mention I have two small powerheads in the tank right now, maxi-jet 400s. Big enough?

Also, what housekeeping is required for carbon? How long can you run it, how frequently. I've heard it can strip too much good stuff out if you run it all the time.

[Geoff]

you have a lot of fish in that tank. 11 and 2 of them are pretty big. it will be tough to counteract the amount of waste these fish produce. the skimmer will help a lot.

also can you see if there is any detritus hiding out behind your LR?

G~

[ajham]

Good point. I can see from the cabinet underneath detritus collecting under large pieces of LR. I've been reluctant to move these around to clean due to disturbance or damage to corals anchored on multiple rocks.

How do you deal with this?

[Geoff]

this is why i went with a bare bottom tank.

another way is to have a PH blowing back behind the LR to try and put the detritus back in suspension so that the skimmer can pull it out.

G~

[JennM]

I think carbon does more good than anything. I doubt it will remove or "strip" the water as some claim. DO use a high quality carbon though, as all contain *some* phosphates but the better brands contain less than some of the cheaper quality stuff. Kent, Black Diamond, Seachem... all make good carbon. Some run it all the time, (I do, change it monthly) some run it a day or a week here and there... truth is the carbon will do the most good in the first 8-24 hours and once it becomes exhausted it won't do anything, and at worst it might leach stuff back into the water.

I'd definitely get in there and do some re-arranging, blow out the detritus off the rocks, move them if need be, rinse them in saltwater - you will be amazed at how much crud accumulates. Let the filter floss pick it up and once you get a new skimmer in place you should see a difference.

Jenn

[ajham]

Good feedback, thanks all. My head was spinning this morning. Thanks for the simplification.

Any more thoughts are appreciated...

[Clownfishman]

What about the carbon foam pad type, wonder how much phosphate those contain.. doesn't aggressive skimming remove phosphates.

[ski1297]

I would try to do more water changes i would do 25%-30% once a week when your Nitrate are that high I have 38 gal with a seaclone 100, bio-wheel 170 (bio wheel on)mix 2 cups of carbon change every othere week and 2 cup of a Nitrate spunge, and two power heads. I have a lot of fish in my 38 gal. My nitrate were up to 60 ppm with the water changes and mixing my own carbon and Nitrate spunge I have now got them down to 10ppm in 2 mouths. You do not want to drop them to o ppm over night your fish will not like that. do you have the new seaclone or the old one. I hear that there old one did not work so good. I have the new one it works very good it fills up the cup 1/4 in about 1 week with some bad stuff.



ryan

[bgi]

Questions:

What nitrate level does your test kit read when you test your RO water? Although I've had good luck with them, some folks (Jenn included) have had some bad experience with false positives from some AP test kits. I would question nitrate levels of 110 ppm with healthy fish. Seachem's nitrite/nitrate test kit doesn't work so well at high levels (the dye breaks down or fails somehow), so give Salifert a try.

What type of iodine does the Hagen test kit detect? Most kits only detect at most two inorganic forms. You could be poisoning your tank with excess iodine. Salifert's detects iodine, iodide, and iodate. Organic iodine is hard to detect. I've read claims here that most iodine moves to iodate fairly quickly in a reef tank. This form isn't detected by most kits (seachem included).
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

If you confirm nitrates are really that high, reducing the level has been covered pretty well. Remove some fish?

The skimmer will pull out organics and proteins before they break down and release nitrates, phosphates, etc., not after they have broken down.