how long is the life period of sandbeds

[Mike O'Brien]

IMO the difference is that the DSB in the ocean is not located in the same places as the reef. The sand around the reef is not collecting detritus like other areas of the ocean may be. DID anyone mention the abyss yet ?

[SPC]

Originally Posted by bill-e

Just one comment about DSB or sand bottoms. I know that eventually mine will fail but I dont care. I would not have a reef tank if I had a BB tank. To me I do this because of the enjoyment I get out of it and the way it looks and I dont like the way BB looks. I dont do much SPS because I dont have the time to tinker and to be honest, I prefer the look of flowing softies and LPS.

My feelings exactly, Bill . If I ever decide that I want an SPS system then I will go back to a BB tank.

Steve

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Twitterbait

this is a discussion that is somewhat pointless since there are so many variables that you must account for...
keep that in mind and please keep from name calling, we are all allowed our opinions.

hmmm, that comment could be taken as name calling IMO. Do you realize that when you make a statement such as this that it is taken by those who have participated in this (pointless) thread as a lack of respect? Aren't you really saying that participants in this thread don't have the good sense to know when a thread is pointless, and that it takes someone like you to point this out to them?

You seem to equate variables to pointless. If this were the case, then aren't the majority of the reef topics discussed on this board pointless? Aren't some discussions more important than others? Isn't a discussion dealing with a method that could potentialy kill SPS corals worth discussing?

There are indeed many variables involved with this topic, and I think that some of us have gone out of our way to bring these variables to light, even though it took a few pages to get there.

before you get too much further please take a look here and read up on the prior discussion, it should only take about 6 hours...

http://thereeftank.com/forums/showth...misconceptions

Why would you post this link if this subject is pointless?

Steve

[motorslave]

Get over it! There are countless opinions on the subject, countless papers that are real and scietific and countless that are just some one who claims to be an expert spouting off at the mouth. There is no one answer but there are some solid facts involved.
The thing that makes this somewhat pointless is that some people just like the look of sand. Some people are aware of the fact that an aquarium is a closed system and no matter how much flow you have, how often you siphon or do water changes, detritus WILL get in the SB and it will settle. Eventually it will saturate the SB.
Some people just want to argue cause they havent tried different things or have been lucky enough not to have a crash. Some people just want to be heard no matter what they are saying.
There is no one answer.
There is no absolute.
There is no one magic way. Every tank is different.
Every person taking care of that tank is different.
To get pissed and argue about something with such room for variations IS pointless.
He likes DSB for what it does, great!
I like BB for the purpose it serves, great!
If anyone is going to get thier feelings hurt and get upset then maybe its time to relax and find another vent. This forum, or site for that matter, is not the place to get all mad and personal. You want to debate and such great, have at it. Keep the personal feelings at home, this debate is not new, it wont go away and there is no sense in making it personal. That just gets people unneccisarily upset and even causes issues that dont need to arise.
Its a debate not an attack.
Keep that in mind before things get out of hand.

[motorslave]

Attitudes will quickly get a thread shut down.

[tdwyatt]

Hi Steve, missed you at the pig roast, you could have seen what happens first-hand when main circulation shuts down unnoticed for a week in a DSB system... ...a long story. I'll be siphoning out the sand in this one and replacing all of it over the next week or so, rearranging the rock, for more/better flow. Looks so far that I lost about 20 specimens, but amazingly enough, some look totally unaffected by the circumstances..

who woulda thunk....

[Twitterbait]

Originally Posted by SPC

hmmm, that comment could be taken as name calling IMO. Do you realize that when you make a statement such as this that it is taken by those who have participated in this (pointless) thread as a lack of respect? Aren't you really saying that participants in this thread don't have the good sense to know when a thread is pointless, and that it takes someone like you to point this out to them?

You seem to equate variables to pointless. If this were the case, then aren't the majority of the reef topics discussed on this board pointless? Aren't some discussions more important than others? Isn't a discussion dealing with a method that could potentialy kill SPS corals worth discussing?

There are indeed many variables involved with this topic, and I think that some of us have gone out of our way to bring these variables to light, even though it took a few pages to get there.

before you get too much further please take a look here and read up on the prior discussion, it should only take about 6 hours...

http://thereeftank.com/forums/showth...misconceptions

Why would you post this link if this subject is pointless?

Steve

Steve,
It is not the existence of variables that makes the dreaded BB vs DSB discussion pointless, it is the amount of variables that effect it. i can set two tanks up next to each other, seed the same way, have the same flow, set everything up the same way... and they are still going to work differently. it is not a lack of respect for anyone, it is my opinion.

BTW, i posted the link to the other thread so you can all see what has already been discussed. some of us don't necessarily like having to re-hash old complex statements. if you look at the length of some of the posts in that thread you can see why Tom or Spanky don't want to have to re-type that up again.

[motorslave]

lets keep the discussion civil

My point and concern exactly. The debate, while endless, is interesting.

[Twitterbait]

You ask substrate to do something, that has absolutely nothing to do with detritus settling on it and nothing to do with gravity.

You ask it to strip ammonia out of the water column, convert it to nitrate, so you can keep things in your aquarium.

That process does not rely on anything settling. Ammonia does not settle.

It is a active transport. It is pulled out of the water column and actively transported/moved into the sediment by bacteria.

Phosphate/phosphorus compounds are also essential for these living bacteria.

P and P compounds should be limiting in marine environments. Because of that, they do not have the "stop" switch.

Ammonia and nitrogenous compounds can be cycled out of marine sediments.

P compounds do not cycle out of marine sediments. They build up until they inhibit the denitrification process. Which moves that bottom layer closer to the top, which makes the sediments leak.

P compounds are actively gathered up in the water column, just like ammonia, transported into the sediment, where they stay until it's full.
P compounds do not rely on gravity any more than ammonia does.

crap settling into the sand bed has nothing to do with it. All the circulation in the world to keep detritus from settling won't change a thing.
Those bacteria that strip ammonia out of the water column, strip phosphate out of the water column. And they move both of them into the sediment. It's their job.
Ammonia can be a net loss, if nitrification/denitrification takes place. P compounds go no where.

here is a quick answer from a good friend....

the only reason i would use sand is for astetics... or if i kept sand dwelling critters.

[motorslave]

" Im up, Im running, hes aiming, Im down!"

[Doug1]

Originally Posted by tiburon

Not unless you get a miniture worm guy like the ones in Dune.. that can fold space and stuff..

Actually its been years since I read Dune but as I recall it was the Sandwoms waste that created the "Spice" that was used by hyperspace pilots to be able to navigate across space time paradox's
Not the same as the "Worm Hole" in ST DS9

[motorslave]

I know some people who are full of "spice" Bahahaha!

[jenajet]

Tom, I think the corals are hanging in there and all will turn out fine. This time next year no one will know anything bad happened in the tank. Things happen and the unpredicability of this hobby is what keeps most of us in it. Btw, I didn't even know a dsb was one 5+ inches till reading this. I thought my 2 inch sb was a dsb until this. I really should read up on dsb's now to try and figure them out but most of it is way over my head. I would like to know what about a dsb makes corals do so well? But I also am not sure about what happens in 5 to 7 years when it has to be replaced. Guess I will have to check back with you after the redo cause I would dread having to remove as many corals as you have in order to replace a sandbed. Or is it something that could be done slowly over a period of months so not to upset things in the system. I guess if I could replace the sand without causing a crash or rockslide(rock lifts would be a big help there) it would be worth trying cause I happen to like the look of sand.

[SPC]

Originally Posted by motorslave

The thing that makes this somewhat pointless is that some people just like the look of sand. Some people are aware of the fact that an aquarium is a closed system and no matter how much flow you have, how often you siphon or do water changes, detritus WILL get in the SB and it will settle. Eventually it will saturate the SB..

Ok, and that's what we were discussing.

Some people just want to argue cause they havent tried different things or have been lucky enough not to have a crash. Some people just want to be heard no matter what they are saying.

Who was arguing?? IMO there was a discussion on DSB's that was very informative and the participants in the thread disagreed on some points. By being able to continue the discussion (as opposed to ending it) we were able to come to some agreements.

There is no one answer.
There is no absolute.
There is no one magic way. Every tank is different.
Every person taking care of that tank is different.

...but the laws of science don't change. If someone is under the false belief that all organics in a sand bed will simply evaporate on there own, then they may not be aware of the real science.

To get pissed and argue about something with such room for variations IS pointless.

Who got pissed (before you did )? I'm really confused here. When do you feel the discussion became pointless?

He likes DSB for what it does, great!
I like BB for the purpose it serves, great!

Great!

If anyone is going to get thier feelings hurt and get upset then maybe its time to relax and find another vent. This forum, or site for that matter, is not the place to get all mad and personal. You want to debate and such great, have at it. Keep the personal feelings at home, this debate is not new, it wont go away and there is no sense in making it personal. That just gets people unneccisarily upset and even causes issues that dont need to arise.

Its a debate not an attack.
Keep that in mind before things get out of hand. [/b]

Were we reading the same thread? Who got personal (please be specific as to which post(s) you are refering to)? I for one would like to know if you find my posts as a personal attack against someone, and am rather curious as to what you concider to be a personal attack in this thread.

Steve

[SPC]

Originally Posted by tdwyatt

Hi Steve, missed you at the pig roast, you could have seen what happens first-hand when main circulation shuts down unnoticed for a week in a DSB system... ...a long story. I'll be siphoning out the sand in this one and replacing all of it over the next week or so, rearranging the rock, for more/better flow. Looks so far that I lost about 20 specimens, but amazingly enough, some look totally unaffected by the circumstances..

who woulda thunk....

Sorry I couldn't make it, Tom, I hope you guy's had a great time. I'll try to make it up sometime later this year, and don't forget about our trip to the Keys.

I'm glad to hear that you didn't loose everything in the crash. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on why some of the animals pulled through.

Steve