How Do You Buy Corals At Wholesale Prices

[JennM]

How to find them? Work in the trade for a while. That's what I did. You'll find it's a real eye-opener. Working it as a business is WAY different than tinkering with a tank or three as a hobby. Pays to have some serious experience under your belt too, with larger systems and the issues that crop up with them. A commercial system or systems is a whole different animal than a hobbyist tank.

You can open any aquarium hobbyist magazine and find a plethora of livestock wholesalers listed - I don't know which of them will sell to non-brick and mortars, after that you play trial-and-error to figure out which ones are any good and which ones aren't. I don't think any of the wholesalers I use run those ads, maybe one does... but I don't buy from 104th Street in Los Angeles, where most of them are. My suppliers either found me, or I met through associations like MASNA and other industry related groups. Networking - gotta love it. Spending time in the trade is the best way to learn it and find out who is good and who isn't. No substitute for experience.

You should also be aware - dry goods/equipment wholesalers are a whole different thing, than livestock wholesalers. Some livestock wholesalers carry a few dry goods as a "sideline" to compliment their livestock, but for dry goods and equipement you'd have to set up an account with a distributor - and if you think it's tough to get in with a livestock wholesaler -- it's even tougher to set up with a dry goods wholesaler if you don't have a storefront. Minimum order requirements do apply - usually $300-350 per order, and freight - they won't deliver to a residence. Most deliver their freight on their own trucks, but some ship common carrier or UPS (if it's not a large order physically) and charges apply there too.

Honestly - it's a lot of hoops to jump through unless you're looking to set something up on a large scale -- and at that if you are, you might want to reconsider doing that in your home because just the humidity and wear/tear on your HVAC system may cancel out any benefit.

I just went through my second fan motor in 4 months in my shop.... HVAC system is 2 years old but looks 20....

Jenn

[yousuredo]

jenn, i admire you for your love of the hobby and the hobbiest. you show compation for everyone envolved and thanks to you and people like you this hobby will continue to have an outstanding future........you are my insperation and something i hope to become over the years........
thanks for your insite and comments, chris

[yardboy]

Originally Posted by yousuredo

jenn, i admire you for your love of the hobby and the hobbiest. you show compation for everyone envolved and thanks to you and people like you this hobby will continue to have an outstanding future........you are my insperation and something i hope to become over the years........
thanks for your insite and comments, chris

Too bad you're not making any money

Two pieces of advice from others reiterated. If you are real serious, start your systems now, and develop the expertise to run an lfs, then do it.
I doubt I'll ever open an lfs, but I take great pleasure in propogating corals, and I do see a place for myself in the pet business. I personally think the frags and grown out colonies supplied to lfs's by local growers is of much higher quality than livestock shipped from halfway around the world. Heck, I've flown to those places, and I don't see how any of it survives! (It's a looooong way to Fiji from Atlanta!) But will I ever be able to effectively compete with those guys (corals grown outside under the tropical sun, using fresh seawater, I doubt it) but we'll see. The Internet is full of pages of business who think they can make some kind of profit from the endeavor, and at their prices, maybe they can!)
I've had sideline business's for a long time, but I've never quit my day job.
Go to GARF.org's website, they have a whole bunch of information on how to go into business for yourself.

[iamdickie]

Originally Posted by JennM

How to find them? Work in the trade for a while. That's what I did. You'll find it's a real eye-opener. Working it as a business is WAY different than tinkering with a tank or three as a hobby. Pays to have some serious experience under your belt too, with larger systems and the issues that crop up with them. A commercial system or systems is a whole different animal than a hobbyist tank.

You can open any aquarium hobbyist magazine and find a plethora of livestock wholesalers listed - I don't know which of them will sell to non-brick and mortars, after that you play trial-and-error to figure out which ones are any good and which ones aren't. I don't think any of the wholesalers I use run those ads, maybe one does... but I don't buy from 104th Street in Los Angeles, where most of them are. My suppliers either found me, or I met through associations like MASNA and other industry related groups. Networking - gotta love it. Spending time in the trade is the best way to learn it and find out who is good and who isn't. No substitute for experience.

You should also be aware - dry goods/equipment wholesalers are a whole different thing, than livestock wholesalers. Some livestock wholesalers carry a few dry goods as a "sideline" to compliment their livestock, but for dry goods and equipement you'd have to set up an account with a distributor - and if you think it's tough to get in with a livestock wholesaler -- it's even tougher to set up with a dry goods wholesaler if you don't have a storefront. Minimum order requirements do apply - usually $300-350 per order, and freight - they won't deliver to a residence. Most deliver their freight on their own trucks, but some ship common carrier or UPS (if it's not a large order physically) and charges apply there too.

Honestly - it's a lot of hoops to jump through unless you're looking to set something up on a large scale -- and at that if you are, you might want to reconsider doing that in your home because just the humidity and wear/tear on your HVAC system may cancel out any benefit.

I just went through my second fan motor in 4 months in my shop.... HVAC system is 2 years old but looks 20....

Jenn

Can you provide me with some of your suppliers names, i have the proper tax info needed for KS. I would like to try a large order first then go from there

[JennM]

Like I said, the suppliers *I* use won't sell to you unless you have a retail storefront (for aquatic pets), regardless of whether or not you have a tax ID or business licence. Look in FAMA - there are lots of wholesalers listed there. I can't speak for what their criteria are but since they are advertising in a hobbyist magazine... perhaps their criteria aren't as tough as others.

It's not likely that you'll get any LFS owner here or elsewhere to name their suppliers - there are only so many quality creatures to go around, and we're all rather protective of our sources (think I said that above too...). If I tell somebody where I'm getting the "good stuff", and they start buying from the same place, I'm cutting up my slice of the proverbial pie.

It's funny - on Tuesdays at the airport, many LFS owners conglomerate to pick up their orders, and people are always looking to see if they can tell where the others are ordering from. One Delta employee even told me once that another store owner, with whom I'm aquainted, asked him what supplier my shipments came from *g* - he didn't tell the guy, but I thought it was funny. Of course if he'd have asked me I wouldn't have said, but what was funnier still is that we both order from at least one of the same places!

Particularly in this area, the marine retail trade is very competitive. Each store has its niche and its "edge". To share that information, particularly on a public board, would not be a benefit to my business, or any other that relies on those particular suppliers.

I can give you all of the general information you want, but I respectfully decline to name specific suppliers. Besides, that would probably tread into "commercial" territory anyway.

Jenn

[yousuredo]

now the suppliers your refer to wouldnt want or be able to grow if you were to drum up some more buisnes for them .......?

hm, not what i expected.....i am still very new to this.......and that was very suprising...

[iamdickie]

Originally Posted by yousuredo

now the suppliers your refer to wouldnt want or be able to grow if you were to drum up some more buisnes for them .......?

hm, not what i expected.....i am still very new to this.......and that was very suprising...

Agreed, I have a shop ready to go. it wouldnt be lfs, it would be online for pickup or shipping only. I dont think i would cut into your buisness, as i am in ks and you are in another state. im not asking you to post your source online, you could pm me a few referances....

[Deuce24]

hey guys, I'm pretty sure Jenn isn't just being selfish here. She has put the time in to find her sources of livestock, and has already stated several times that THEY do not sell to people with just tax IDs and a heavy pocket book. You need to have your own store, and even if not, I wouldn't see why not to be a little selfish when she has put the time in to discover everything for herself, make the mistakes that come along the way, and grow from the experience, not just post a thread online asking for the best livestock suppliers around.

[quote=yousuredo]now the suppliers your refer to wouldnt want or be able to grow if you were to drum up some more buisnes for them .......?QUOTE]

And besides, I'm sure she has no obligation to refer new customers to her suppliers. It's their job to find you, not for her to point you to them (particularly when you, even though you don't think you will, will end affecting some of her orders). Just my thoughts.

[reefBoyDc]

Iamdickie and yousuredo,

I don't own an LFS, but I am a business owner. Like Jenn, I would not go around divulging my sources and business contacts unless I had something to gain from sharing such information. It's nothing personal... it's business, and as business owners, our livelihood and that of the people we employ depends on the relationships we have with our suppliers. A successful business owner is one who is able to forge long lasting, quality relationships with other businesses and infdividuals. This does not come easy and requires a lot of work. It is unfair of you to expect Jenn to just reveal what probably took her many years to acquire. The information she DID supply, IMO, is already very generous, and I'm sure she is willing to give you advice, as she already has.

My 2 cents.

Mike

[yousuredo]

i agree, reefboydc, just stating that i was supprised is all not looking for the supplier as much as i am looking to avoid the costly mistakes that could bankrup me in the earliest of stages "ADVICE" is all i need to point me in the proper direction......i thought other would like to help with mistakes they have made and HOW TO'S and NOT TO's of certain things....i would like to supply to jenn and other's in the future not hurt them or compete with them..........and i am sorry if i came across as ungratefull for the info and comments so far from everyone

[yardboy]

I think the key element in Jenn's discussion is that there is a limited supply of livestock, and if she told you where she got her's, then she'd end up giving you a slice of her pie, and then you'd want to sell it back to her later (at a higher price, I'd assume) Call Coca-Cola and ask them where they get the ingredients for their coke syrup, I suspect you'd get a much less positive response!

I recall starting a lumber business some years ago. Several people came by and asked me all kinds of questions, how to do it, where I got my supplies, etc. I naively gave them all they asked, and they made my life harder later when they were in competition with me. I learned to keep my mouth shut. Next time I find some gold in a stream, I'll be sure not to tell everyone where I found it!
As I've said before, the aquarium business is a weird business. Correct me if I'm wrong Jenn, but it seems that the cycle is that you get in an order, the best stuff goes before you hardly get them out of the bag, and the rest is what all the work's about, trying to take care of poor quality or relatively unattractive animals until they either die or someone buys them. Not being rich, my original collection of livestock was mostly brown, often had dead spots on them, and small. I was shocked the first time I saw Casey's tank, since no lfs has anything to compare to that.

[yousuredo]

the key element is: that there is a limited supply, so would it be better for it to stay limited or have more people propagating so the supply increases......?

[JennM]

Roger and Reefboy - you understand where I'm coming from. Thanks - was beginning to feel that my message was lost.

iamdickie, you might be in KS so you would not be competing for my retail customers but to tell you where I buy from you WOULD be competing with me for whatever supplier X's offerings are each week. While manufactured goods are very much "supply and demand", livestock is a different sort of commodity. Every week there are only so many fish, corals and pounds of live rock imported. Many of the organisms (corals, in particular) are regulated by CITES and quotas are imposed. Some times of the year, certain corals are scarce because quota limits have been exhausted, and occasionally there is a "drought" until new permits are issued and obtained. There will always be somebody cranking powerheads out of a factory, but fish migrate, suffer loss of habitat, corals suffer loss of habitat, some inverts head to deeper water when the weather is hot, some animals don't ship well in hot or cold weather - heck some don't ship well at all... there is not an infinite number of organisms available each week, and if I were to let you in on my sources, the possibility is there that you might snap up what I wanted to buy next week, or next month etc. That is why I'm not into sharing my sources - I'm protecting my own interests here - I can't be any more tactful or clear about that. I don't want you buying out from under me. There... I've said it.

As for storefront - that means retail, walk-in store where customers come in to purchase. One of my suppliers has a blurb on his stocklists that says, "etailers need not apply"... it's sort of tongue-in-cheek but he's serious - he won't sell to anyone except the brick and mortars that have supported him since 1978, long before the dot com revolution, and mail order livestock supply houses, and he is mindful of who pays the bills and keeps food on his table. As I said, I can only speak for the suppliers I use, and I only support those who support me by keeping the playing field level. Quality is my top objective, but I also look at the bigger picture, and I won't spend money with an outfit that will bypass me and sell direct. Many other retailers don't care, but I do. Just my own personal business ethics/philosophy.

I sort of feel like I'm beating this subject to death here. Again, I respectfully decline to divulge my livestock sources, publically or by PM or otherwise... they are my lifeblood. Please do not ask again. As I said, I'll offer whatever generalized info I think might be helpful - but I'm not going to get into specifics.

One thing I will say, if you are contemplating getting into this business in any form - have deep pockets and be prepared for anything - nothing like a disease outbreak to wipe you out - happened to me when I first opened, got a fish shipment with Vibrio and when it was all said and done I had 16 fish left in the whole shop. Took me forever to recoup from that, and of course there was no recourse with the vendor, nor with insurance - the vendor disavowed himself of any responsibility. Of course months later through discussions with other retailers that had the same problem, at the same time, with the same vendor, I know it was something that came in with the fish (accidentally, I'm sure) but the risks of dealing with livestock are very real, and one has to be able to bounce back from a major setback like that. Have deep, very deep pockets. The most expensive organism is a dead one.

Jenn

[JennM]

Originally Posted by yousuredo

the key element is: that there is a limited supply, so would it be better for it to stay limited or have more people propagating so the supply increases......?

Well if you can figure out how to propagate P. hepatus, you can make money.

Lots of hobbyists are propagating corals, without having to go the wholesale route.

Let's be clear - there is a big difference between propagating corals, and running a chop shop.

Propagating is having mother colonies, and fragging and growing out the frags to sell - all the while nurturing the mother colonies to keep things going.

A chop shop is a place that buys wild colonies intact, hacks them up into frags, and sells the frags, only to buy more wild colonies to cut up and sell.

In order to propagate, one only needs a mother colony or colonies to work with - and the necessity to keep buying on an ongoing basis is moot.

A chop shop needs a constant supply to keep cutting up and selling off.

Judging by the questions asked, it seems that the latter strategy appears to be the intention.

I could buy colonies and chop them up - I don't. If a coral breaks en route to me, or after it arrives, of course I frag it - would be senseless not to. I do support propagation - and again I don't want to get into commercial territory with the particulars, but there are lots of people, particularly in this area, who propagate their corals. One of the original purposes of the reef club in town, was to share and exchange frags between hobbyists. Helps to know where a piece of your colony is, in the event of a tank crash - many folks have got bits of their own original colonies back after a disaster.

I have to chuckle sometimes - folks want to get heavily into propagating the "rare" stuff... well if everybody's propping it, soon it won't be rare anymore and the price will drop... estimated return on investment drops like a rock... but that's another post

Jenn

[JennM]

Correct me if I'm wrong Jenn, but it seems that the cycle is that you get in an order, the best stuff goes before you hardly get them out of the bag, and the rest is what all the work's about, trying to take care of poor quality or relatively unattractive animals until they either die or someone buys them.

More or less, Roger... I had a black spotted (read: ugly) cardinal fish for over 2 years before he sold... hardy fish, but homely. We buy stuff speculating what will sell and what won't - and yes the choice stuff sells fast, and the ugly ducklings hang around. I've got one fish that has been here nearly a year - nothing wrong with it, it's cute but it is not appropriate for many tanks, so here he stays until the right buyer comes along. But that's the nature of retail.

I always wonder how etailers manage to unload their slow movers? At least in retail people come in and browse - sooner or later something appeals to someone and if it's appropriate for their tank, they buy and take it home. Most people come in with nothing particular in mind, they wait for something to catch their eye. If one has a tank full of brown corals and nothing else, people will buy a brown coral. And there are lots more brown corals out there than blue or pink ones... etail, IMO takes away that part of the shopping experience.

Jenn