Home farming: good for the world, bad for business?

[Piero]

Hey there polyp heads,
Just some interesting thoughts that keep me up at night...would like some feedback.

I think it's obvious - at least on a broader ethical level - that trading/home farming of corals and invertibrates is a good thing for the environment, the animals, and the hobbyists as a whole. However, it's ironic that this same activity may have a negative impact on the economics of the industry(LFSs). My question is: How do you LFS owners out there view this "growing" phenomenon(no pun)?

Especially in the light of increased regulation and bans on importation, do you see LFSs turning into farms themselves? Will it be the wholesalers/importers that become the farmers? OR - will we all become the coral-equivalent of Napster(a peer-to-peer network), and cut off the middle men?

C'mon LFS owners...i know you're out there lurking.

[ShirleyM]

This is addressing the subject raised and is written to no one in particular...

A long time ago...parrots and other birds were imported for the pet trade.
They are no longer, nor are they allowed to be.
Instead, under much more humane conditions in the majority of cases, they are home-raised in the U.S. and other countries. The LPS [Local Pet Store] buys them from the U.S. breeder. People who choose not to buy a bird from the LPS may do so from a private breeder or home-business breeder.

LPS sells pups and kittens (helpless creatures locked in cages...)
Most people choose to obtain pups and kittens from a private breeder, their local humane society, and such.

In my opinion, much good and many benefits can come from growing coral and raising fish locally rather than harvesting them from their natural environments.

As for comparing Napster and an artist's original music with the LFS and the coral/fish farmer, I don't see the comparison.

There is a research paper on this topic, "Coral Corrals and Fish Farms" (Troy Alexander, copyright 1999) which addresses the benefits and impact of this sort of business endeavor.

--Shirley

[Piero]

Maybe I was getting carried away with the napster reference. ...kinda popped in my head as i was posting. But from a business perspective, the comparison is a bit interesting nonetheless. napster, and other peer-to-peer networks allow individuals/end users to share resources freely(corals, etc.).

[ShirleyM]

I think it's a great subject to discuss - coral propagation and fish farming.
The LFS could either do it themselves or they could purchase from knowledgeable coral/fish farmers. [they'd have to be knowledgeable or they'd have nothing to sell!] The LFS would have the oppty to learn as they purchase for their stores...

** Inland Aquatics lab...Terre Haute, IN....it's truly awesome what they are doing with fish farming and coral propagation, research, etc. Their retail store is a very small part of their total square footage

Shirley

[reeferkeeper]

IMO...oh oh, here I go again. I really dont think farming coral is quite comparable to farming birds. I agree that the restrictions on importing birds turned out to be a blessing for the buyer as well as the bird. It had forced the breeding and research into breeding of every breed of bird..this has resulted in cases where captive bred birds are actuallt released into their native habitats...insuring the continuance of the species. It also was a blessing the the buyer as they are now assured to the age and in most cases provides a happier bird since co many are now hand raised. I have raised more birds then I care to figure out and I loved it, but, back to the purpose here.

Unlike breeding birds, which really doesnt require very much special equipment and the equipment needed is very resonably affordable, farming corals require expensive equipment as well as considerable knowledge. Almost anyone can put a pair of birds together with a nest box and have eggs without much more work then cleaning and healthy diet..something you give them anyways. I would think that there are very few reefers out there that have actually tanks specifically for fragging coral. Many of us are lucky enough to have the reproduction take place in our aquariums, but not raising enough to be making money enough to make it a business.

Getting to my point - sorry about the long way around here-- Though I am ALL FOR coral farming. I think we need to expect the cost of the coral to increase if farmed. I, for one, would be willing to pay a little more for farm/home rasied coral, but I think we would lose many interested reefers on the basis of cost. It took me YEARS to be in a position that I could actually afford the reef critters. Now that I am secure and able to afford the hobby, I can also afford the higher priced farm corals. As comapred to the birds...they have actully gon down in cost with the increased number of people breeding. Maybe I am just talking non-sense here, so maybe I need to quit...just sharing my opinion.

[Doug1]

I dont work for a LFS but I know people who do, anyway heere is my take on the subject.
Regarding with the comparison with napster, I agree with Shirley, artist creativity is a whole different ball game than harvesting wild reef animals. The better LFS I know that deal in corals know and will help people get started on fragging or breeding. A lot of LFS owners or employees that are directly involved with the hobby are doing it themselves. Reefkeepers are a very small minority of the aquarium hobby as a whole and unless you are in a large Metro area most fish stores find it difficult to survive on SW stuff alone. The losses in shipping and handling account for a lot of the mark up. Dry goods are more profitable if done in volume, but I think the typical pet store makes the base dollars on dog/cat/small animals and supplies
Looking down the road at impending legislation, the forward thinkers will be fragging and encouraging their better customers as well, as it adds to the list of tank acclimated stock that will be outside legislative control. With the huge surge in BB's like this where reefers communicate and swap all over it will help keep the tank raised gene pool from stagnating, but we are always going to have to buy salt and all the other stuff to maintain tanks, where you gonna go

[Junkzoo]

Ditto 100% with Shirley and Dougs post,,,,

[ShirleyM]

Hi Mike (ReeferKeeper) and all,

So you [Mike] used to raise birds! That's cool! We have 5 but haven't raised our own...

I didn't mean to compare raising birds with coral/fish farming, but instead to note that comparing birds/dogs/cats/fish/corals/etc that any LFS/LPS might market with the taking of songs via Napster, BearShare, WinMX, etc that leads to copyrighted songs being burned to CDs for any variety of reasons, including resale in the local schoolyard -- not a valid comparison.

If I could AFFORD to propagate corals on a large scale, I sure would enjoy learning about it and eventually doing it...for the good of the species, the wild reefs, and the interests of the public. It would be tremendously expensive to do this on a large scale, I believe.

I believe, from what I currently know, that the LFS and public could only benefit from "home-grown" reefstock. Like Doug said, many LFS's encourage reefkeepers to propagate their own, and they support it by giving store credit or payment for frags we bring in, and many LFS's propagate their own or have future plans to.

As for price....well, it may go up, who knows. I have no clue what it would cost to set up a coral farm in the States compared to harvesting from the wild and shipping and loss %-age figured in, overhead at the store, etc.

As for the drygoods, like Doug said, the demand for the new tech-type equipment and regular drygood/hardware/food/meds/additives/data instruments/etc. will always be there and can only increase as this "hobby" sure has increased in the past recent years. Also, not everyone will drive for hours to visit the coral farm....

Shirley

[reefcam]

I agree with Mike (Reefkeeper) that farming corals or even saltwater fish as a hobbyist is very costly in terms of equipment and supply. I guess I speak from experience as I am improving my setup to raise baby Bangaiis and propagating corals. I have recently invested quite a bit into this propagation of mine, and I didn't do this with the thought of ever making a penny back. Sure I do sell the corals and baby fish when I can, but for $5 - $10 / frag, I would have to sell quite a bit to make any impact to the new system.

Also I know that our LFS (excluding Petco) is also willing to buy and captive raise coral or fish from the hobbyist. Problem is, as the person trading, you loose out because you only get credit and as other hobbyist, you loose too, because you now have to pay the mark up prices, versus paying the hobbyiest at a cheaper price. So that's why I have decided to trade as much with other hobbyist and making it cheap.

However, the LFS are able to survive by supply other species that are not readily available.

Since my Rose Anemone split twice, I thought I try to get it to split more. My Rose originally came as a captive anemone. It's healthy as an ox. Plus, I think captive raise fish will cost more now, but they are also hardier.

[reeferkeeper]

Shirley,

I hope I didnt come across negatively. I liked the idea of using the birds versus coral to actually get to the point I was trying to achieve. I have read many of your post here and know that you are one smart cookie! I hope no offense was taken. Yes, I used to live in Florida and bred/hand fed tons of birds - from love birds to macaws...It was awesome, but I hated to sell them after doing all the feeding Have a great day!

[Doug1]

The future of the hobby is in fragging and raising what we can.
While a large scale coral farm is an expensive operation, a lot of hobbiests are doing coral frags on scales ranging from trimming in the tank to several layer prop tanks in the garage. Very few of us will make any money at it but every frag or tank raised banghai or clown is a step in the right direction.
If restrictive legislation gets passed, the die hard reefers will keep going, tho the hobby may have to adapt new ways of doing things to stay in it. The large petcos and such will prolly stop dealing with SW livestock tho I imagine they will continue to sell the drygoods. Thats going to make it real challenging for the smaller dedicated shops that specialize, thats why I really think its a good idea to support these people, exchange info and keep them afloat. If you have established a good rapport with your local reef shop, I bet a "Help MR Wizard" call at 9pm sunday with a tank disaster looming will get you more help than trying to get Petco to open up and help you

[karsco]

I find this thread very interesting! I feel that it is critical that we begin to rely on propagating corals from home farming companies. Eventually the government will ban most if not all wild coral harvesting due to the poor conditions of our reefs.

I am also a member of the Reefland board and one of the hobbiests i.e. Scubadude is venturing into the business of coral and clam farming. He is documenting his progress of building a greenhouse and tanks for his coral farm. I thought some of you might find this thread interesting...

http://www.reefland.com/cgi-bin/foru...&threadid=6763

[ShirleyM]

Hi Mike and Doug, and everyone else,

Mike, no offense whatsoever taken! I was afraid I'd offended you or someone else! I really try hard to phrase things so it's seen as a discussion, not a criticism. I have such respect for everyone on the board here!

Regarding what Doug said about supporting the small reef shops, I see great benefits in everyone doing this. With the right motives and approach, the shops love to learn from others just as we love to learn from each other and from them. On account of this good relationship built with three reef shops (not including PA, which has been most helpful, but falls in a different category from the small reef shops) we've received EXCELLENT emergency help from all three shops AFTER HOURS and also during store hours where we were given dedicated time and help via long distance phone call taking 20 minutes or more of their time ... and they weren't afraid to say, "Gee, I don't know." when they didn't have all the answers. On one occasion, Inland Aquatics (Morgan Lidester, Biologist) called us back at 9:30 at night to give us more information and see how our disaster was coming along!

The reef shops we visit in Lafayette (Aquarium World and Cool Corals) flat out won't sell a coral or fish they think is 1) not doing well 2) just arrived and only been there 2 or 3 days. Cool Corals likes to keep their stock something like 10 days before selling. There are lots of "sold" stickies on the tanks of both these shops. I doubt we'll see the change stores do that.

No school today, must run, moving Troy out of IU residence hall and into apt for summer work in Chem research lab...something along the lines of molecular chemical synthesis or something like that. One of the research professors is doing his research on the chemicals produced by zoanthids!

Take care, Have a great day!
Shirley

[Piero]

pretty soon we'll all need to attach a 60 page disclaimer to anything we post!

[JennM]

LFS owner here, checking in

As Doug said, hobbyists will still need hardware/dry goods etc., and I'm quite willing to take stuff on trade for store credit. For me, mail order is the bigger threat than coral farming/propagating at this point in time. Some mail order places sell hardware and dry goods at less than my wholesalers charge ME. Because the big .coms are buying zillions of "widgets" and I'm ordering a dozen....

IMO more emphasis should be placed on larger scale farming YES, but also to GOOD legislation regarding collection practices. Let's not forget that for many collectors, those marine ornamentals are their LIVELIHOOD. A ban on collection and importation etc., would be devastating to some economies.

Rather, responsible collection practices, coupled with captive propagation when possible and practical, should be explored together. For an example, Dr. Amanda Vincent did work with local collectors (Phillippines???) somewhere in the Pacific Rim who were collecting seahorses (primarily for TCM) and showed them how to collect them in such a way as to sustain local populations. Some areas were off limits, some horses were corralled, but their young were able to "escape", pregnant males were left to bear their young, etc. Since the collection couldn't be STOPPED, it was modified to preserve both the animals, and the livelihoods of the locals.

What *I* can do as a LFS is to support local breeders, bring in the supplies they want and need, take their offspring/frags for store credit, and encourage people to buy tank-raised when practical.

There ARE issues sometimes with mixing captive reared with wild caught animals...captive reared are often raised with sterile conditions (UV etc) and the moment they encounter a pathogen (ie: carried by a WC fish) they are stricken with illness. This is something that is often overlooked. I wouldn't say that CB fish are necessarily "hardier" although they are already accustomed to captive live, they tend to acclimate better, but they aren't necessarily more disease resistant. More offspring live in captivity than would make it in the wild, and often "weaker" individuals survive in controlled conditions, can be more vulernable.

What can the average reefer do? Join organizations that support ethical legislation (ethical to people as well as the reefs!). Support LFS that deal with ETHICAL wholesalers. As an LFS it's my duty and responsibility to know where my livestock is coming from....beyond my local wholesaler or LAX...

OK I think I've spent enough time on the old soap box...I've got a coral system to clean.

Xenia frags, anyone?

Jenn