DSB vs Bare Bottom....Here We Go Again

[Allyson]

I was planning on running my new system skimmerless....will a bare bottom work against me if I went this route? Also, would having a DSB in my refug counteract the benefits of being bare in the display?

Casey....I saw the pics of your transformation. How did your tank fare?

[ruhspolostar]

You know & everyonr had been nice lately and then you go and throw something in to the mix

j/k

Sorry to ask a question of your question but what are the benefits of a skimmerless system?

[Allyson]

It's friday...got to get everyone fired up for the weekend.

That's okay...I'll answer your question briefly, but please guys let's keep this thread focused on Bare Bottom concerns and not a skimming issue.

I've never run a skimmer (but then again I've never had a system over 40 gals. I am going to do some research since this is going to be my first large (135 gal) reef, but I've always kept my bioload light and not had a problem running skimmerless in the smaller systems. I promise, I'll start a thread on this issue at later date (after I do my research) so we can have a lively but well informed debate.

[mapster]

skimmerless, what are you nuts!?! j/k

I would think a bare bottom would make it easier to see/manually remove detritus. With the higher flow rates filter floss could be used to remove the larger particle that would be kept in suspension and pass through the sump (if utilized). This stuff will have to be removed early and often to avoid nutrient build-up.

my 2 cents anyway.

[sanblas]

a barebottom question...can you have sandsifters like nasarus(sp?) snails or conchs in a barebottom tank?
thanks

[rtgordon]

bare bottom vs DSB hmmm... .....


i would think that if a DSB is a buffer and then you take the skimmer out of the picture, you are looking at some pretty frequent water changes. i really don't know for sure though.

[Graham]

It won't work against you in and of itself.
Although I am also wondering why anyone would go skimmerless (sorry), as long as you keep export (and growth/bioaccumulation + harvest) greater than import (and waste), you will likely create a nice stable environment.

Bear in mind that not having a sandbed really only means that there is less nutrient buffering in your system. If your methods add up to a net increase in nutrient input (and nutrient retention), it doesn't matter what you're doing - BB or DSB, skimmer or not, your system will have troubles sooner or later.

Personally, if I had a skimmerless system, I'd probably use a sandbed. I'm just not confident enough in my ability to create a zero net nutrient environment. I'd want that "margin of error" that a sandbed allows - if only temporarily...I'd also export areas of the sand fairly often, and harvest macroalgae and animal biomass (Xenia perhaps, other rapid growth corals).

In all honesty though, I'd probably scrap all that and just hook up a skimmer.

[ruhspolostar]

Stay On Topic J/K

you can have them but you must supplement their food daily, Allyson as someone who has run a DSB in Lrge tank for about 2 years now, I have seen the benefits of it but those benefits have been latley turned into headches, the diatoms and pirple alage build up id downright disgusting. Not to mention that ih hordes un used foods and wastes that later emerge to raise nitrates and phosphates, this combined with the bio-balls that I used just started kiling things in a massive die off, within a month I lost 2 clams, my xenia colony, & a BTA, having that said when I do remove the DSB I will also add a refugium which will have a DSB, that sounds crazy but from what I have seen and learned the refugium environment is totally different the tank nvironment, it seems more easily contained & monitterred

I have 2 empty 20 gallon Long Tanks, I want to set one up w/ a BB just to see how I like it...

-adam

[SPC]

Originally Posted by Allyson

I was planning on running my new system skimmerless....will a bare bottom work against me if I went this route?

Hi Allyson,

Not necessarily

Also, would having a DSB in my refug counteract the benefits of being bare in the display?

Not necessarily . If I were going to run a DSB I would run it in the main tank. IME a DSB in a refug does not work over the long run because it acts as a settling tank. In the DSB experts opinions a DSB in a remote location does not function properly because there is a lack of food. I had a beautiful 75 gallon refugium, sand, live rock, caulerpa, bugs etc... that lasted about 2 years before it turned into a stinking mess. Of course the thought at this time was that you never want to remove detritus because this is food for the critters (which didn't take place adequately in my refugium BTW). But even if I had wanted to remove detritus from this refugium, I couldn't have done a very good job due to all the caulerpa and rocks.
Steve

[Phishnoob]

*covers ears*

[tdwyatt]

I was kinda hoping we'd get to see pix of Allyson's bare bottom...

[tdwyatt]

Seriously, so long as you're willing to do regular siphoning of detrital buildup and organic "mulm", you could prolly get away with a BB setup and no skimmer, but the original reason for going skimmerless was to reduce the removal of what little "plankton" was being produced by the DSB. I am not so sure that there is a reason to go skimmerless with a BB setup.

One of the major reasons for going BB is to keep SPS reeftop specimens that require high current flow and low nutrient levels, to which DSB and skimmerless husbandry can be detrimental to if allowed to run untended or with the wrong husbandry protocol. If your goal is to keep a mixed population, or to keep octocorals in general, then I would suggest a DSB and heavy skimming to maintain low total nitrates while still providing the buffer for octocorals, and it will allow for some lapses in husbandry while controlling both organic carbon and nitrogen.

Think about what you want to keep in your system, then decide where you want to go with emulation of the desired biotope.

hth... butt waiting for pix...

[Doug1]

(Doug smacks Tom)

From reading pages of debate and input for days heres the short of it. Bare bottoms, coupled with high flow rates(talking flow that would induce a sandstorm) along with aggressive skimming, and low bioload seem to be well suited to SPS corals.
I think this works because it comes closer to simulation reef crest environment than most of the other methods.
DSB and Plenums will work for a while but even if you have a lot of critter diversity and limit bioload eventually you pass the point where biocontrol can keep up with nutrient production. Live rock is waste producing biomass, DSB is a waste magnet and biomass to boot. All the critters that break down waste still produce waste, and the phosphates that they release from food and waste tend to build up, and that is the cause of mega algae problems, so one either spends a lot of energy trying to deal with the algae.
With the aforementioned bare bottom tank, vigorous circulation keeps a lot of the waste solids in suspension where the overflow can feed them to a skimmer and or a mechanical filter as needed. Water changes along with siphoning visible debris further reduce waste, if it aint there it wont produce nasties
Now can I pet the squirrels Spanks

[Casey]

Allyson my tank is much better BB now,the reason to go for BB is to keep nutrients down low and that in turn will help to not fuel bad algae growths and pollution and whatever else will build up,remember undergravel filters they are a thing of the past just like DSB will be one day going bare is the best thing I ever did.

[USA reefer]

Definately run a skimmer with the BB...

BB method is to get the detritus up, circulating and out of your system ASAP.

Need great flow in your tank to do this and some siphoning I would imagine depending on the flow.

Skimmer will help take some unwanted crap out of your water that you may not see and adds to the overall purity of the water.