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dinoflagellates problem

13K views 60 replies 8 participants last post by  Quinten87 
#1 ·
My tank has been set up for two-ish years and for a year and a bit of this I have been battling dinos.
My parameters (latest test) are as follows:
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Phosphate - 0
Calcium - 340ppm
Alkalinity - 8.4 DKH
Magnesium - 1450ppm
Temperature - 78
Salinity - 35psw
Specific gravity - 1.023
PH-8.3
I've had some troubles with my alkalinity but these parameters have been pretty consistent minus the phosphate. The phosphate was at about 0.1 before I added in the GFO.

So far these have been the casualties:
-Kole Tang
-Lots of snails and hermit crabs
-4 neon gobies
-2 cleaner shrimp
-6 emerald crabs
-couple corals (acropora and montipora)
-A variety of smaller things (Eg. coralline algae)
-2 pearly jawfish

This is what's left:
-2 percula clowns
-tuxedo urchin
-some zoas, hammerhead corals, and some nems
-Some macroalgaes in the tank
-some coralline algae

My setup:
It is a 55g tank with a 15g sump.

I have two HOB filters left over from my freshwater tank that I haven't taken off. One is rated for 110g and the other is rated for 75g. I have GAC in both.

I have a crushed aragonite gravel with a large grain size that is 1-2 inches deep (closer to 1" in most places). I have replaced part of it and disturb it regularly.

I have about 115 pounds of live rock in the system (weighed dry not wet) split between the sump and the display. I bought the rock dry with one piece of live rock from my LFS to 'seed' the tank.

My sump set up starts with a pre-filter that I wash every second day. It drains over a compartment with a chemical absorption pad ( http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c5812/c378024373/p17666996.html ) before going through some filter socks. Next I have a fuge with some chaeto and live rock this overflows through some GAC into a compartment that contains an oversized skimmer, a media reactor with GFO, and a 800GPH pump to return the water to the main system.

I have a 750GPH water pump placed opposite to the return from the sump and a 500GPH pump to eliminate a couple dead spots I found.

My lighting is an LED system http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c5813/c231289/p17721560.html

The Battle Against Dinos
I think this started around the time I started dosing iodine (dumb idea I know) and I have read this can trigger dino blooms.

I've tried every single solution I can find on the internet. The first thing I read was an intensive maintenance schedule. This did nothing. Daily water changes (10%), daily filter washing, scrubbing off tons of dinos. By the next day they just grow back. I next read that I was doing everything wrong and you need to not do water changes (I later learned that this was also wrong and that it could do something but it's not because your 'feeding' the algae with your water changes). This did nothing. Next I tried a combo-aproach. I scrubbed the rocks and did some water changes as well as raised my PH. I then started a blackout (lasted for seven days. I completely covered my main tank and sump) while also dosing hydrogen peroxide, aerating the tank and topping off with kalk exclusively. This actually put a bit of a dent in the algae but didn't do anything to substantial. I'm now doing intensive maintenance while running only blue lights. I'm also using the peroxide strategy and am slowly increasing my doses until I get up to about 5ml per gallon of 3%w/v solution per day. So far this is doing nothing and the dinos are growing happily (I'm still only topping off with kalk).

If anyone has any idea as to what I could do to get rid of these dinos it would be greatly appreciated as they are ruining my tank, and my enjoyment of this hobby.

Edit: The tuxedo urchin devours the dinos. Not enough to make a difference (alone) but may consider getting more. It's funny that everything else in the tank died when they eat dinos but the tuxedo urchin is thriving on it.
 
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#30 ·
@90ReefZilla How would not dosing peroxide help? The only thing peroxide does is in regards to the algae is oxidize the algae? I have already taken the rocks out of the sump. Don't get why cutting GFO would help either? The only effect it has is removal of phosphate. As stated before I am only maintain parameters with Alkalinity supplement and dosing extremely infrequently. If you read my set-up I have tons of flow (750gph powerhead, 500gph powerhead, 800gph return pump, 450gph HOB filter, 250gph HOB filter) and added some more recently.
When yous say it happened after you lost all but one fish do you mean the dinos caused the fish to die or that after the fish died you had an outbreak?

@Geoff my system is just over two years old. I have had dinos for the majority of the time my system has been set up: about a year and a half.
 
#31 ·
Quinten I am not against you. I am only trying to help. Sorry about the flow comment. I skim this site more often than not. I may have missed a couple details in the beginning

I troubleshoot and engineer things for a living. You are somehow fueling the Dino's even more. In order to troubleshoot the issue you need to remove some variables from the equation to see what is working and what is not. You need to bring your system back to the basics in order to fix this issue I believe. Meaning you may be your own worse enemy by adding chemicals.

The majority of problem I have experienced with my tank is my own doing. And the majority of the problems wouldn't have happened if I would have kept things simple. My Dino outbreak happened after my fish died from ich. I tried to medicate the tank. The die off with the medication caused the bloom. Or my tank was just too overstocked.
 
#32 ·
I understand where your coming from. If I want to look for what is fueling the dinos growth I need to look at a variable that has been in play since I got the Dinos and has continued through my battle with them. I started running GFO and I started dosing hydrogen peroxide only after my Dinos had been in my tank for awhile. This eliminates them as variables. I have gone through a period where I didn't dose the tank at all and didn't do water changes. The dinos kept on trucking right through that period.
 
#33 ·
I have never heard of someone having Dinos for more than 18 months. Normally proper maintenance and starving the Dinos out over time should work if you are doing it right.

But good luck. What worked for me may not work for you. Food for thought though.... Dinoflagellates is a bacteria. Bacteria feeds on Alk, and sometimes elevated oxygen levels, photosynthesis, and much more. With the amount of waste that has built up in your tank over time..... It's a recipe for disaster
 
#34 ·
Dinoflagellates are an algae. They have bacterial characteristics but they are an algae. Elevated oxygen reduces their growth, my alkalinity levels are pretty stable so don't see how they would be eating it, and how do you know that wastes have massively built up in my tank?

Most people that get highly invasive dinoflagellates simply shut their tank down from what I've read online.

I'm thinking of removing the fish, and invertebrates and just doing something to kill the dinos (massively dose hydrogen peroxide or swing a parameter majorly such as temp).
 
#38 ·
They are Protists.
Protists are microbes that occur either as single cells or a colony of similar cells. They live in water or in moist habitats on land. They can be found in other multicellular organisms, with either a parasitic or symbiotic relationship to their host. Unlike other groups of organisms - such as fungi and animals - protists are not closely related to each. They are more of a collection of miscellaneous organisms that do not fit well into other groups. Protists are sometimes divided into three categories: plantlike algae, animal-like protists, and slime molds that resemble fungi.

commonly spoke... They happen before Algae. Algae is a multicellular organism that the protists attach to. The dinos I had looked more like a slime. You must have a more aggressive strain of cellular development in your tank. All of which point to excess nutrients in the water. They need food to grow and a host to grow on.
 
#35 ·
i can tell you that cranking the alk way up will kill it off. though it also kills off your other hermatypic organisms. :(

in the past when i have had it, it will go away on its own once everything in the tank has settled out and finds its balance. not sure what is going on in your system to keep it going for so long.

do you have a picture of the system? maybe more eyes can see a pattern in where it is growing.

G~
 
#36 ·
I can remove the fish and corals to a 10 gallon tank while I treat the main tank. My biggest concern is the biofilter and to a lesser extent some macro-algae and coralline algae I have growing in the tank. I think the biofilter would survive an alkalinity jump but I'm not so sure about my desirable algae. I'm not home right know but may be able to provide some low-quality photos later on today. One last question: how high would I have to crank the alkalinity up and what supplement should I use to do it.
 
#37 ·
in my case the Dino's died off when the alk got to 13. i was not doing it on purpose. my chiller was getting repaired and i was using evaporation to cool the tank. the Kalk reactor was working really well and was pushing more Kalk into the system in the top off than i was expecting. the fish showed no signs of stress from the high alk. all of the hermatypic organisms died, except for one clam. :( softies should be fine. not sure about algae, but my guess is that it would die off also.

i was suggesting doing this per se. it was just an observation that i had with my system with a sudden increase in Kalk and testing the water only showed a super high alk level.

G~
 
#39 ·
Incase your confused about them hosting your rocks, corals do host dinos, this is where their flangelle come in. When a coral host them they do not have a flangella, however if they leave the coral or the coral evicts them (bleaching) they can grow one to roam about the water column. Ever see a coral die and watch dinos spread from the death site? This is how i got dinos, twice, a zoa died and i watch the dinos spread day by day from the dead zoa both times. The firat time i did a swries of taking the rocks out (10g tank easy enough) swishing and dunkingthem in saltwater and i took the sand out and rinsed it in ro/di water, it took 3 of these treatments to rid the tank of dinos. I cutofff the organic food source which also cutoff the inorganic nutrient production. The second time was this week, a zoa colony kept getting kicked around, finally i put it on the frag rack, a bit too late, it didnt make it and dinos appeared outta nowhere, quickly got rid of them by removing that particular frag plug
 
#41 ·
This is impossible. The dinoflagellates that are in your corals cannot survive outside of the coral. Dinoflagellates is an extremely general term. Dinoflagellate is actually a phylum. This is equivalent to looking at a human and saying that they are a Chordate (animal with a backbone) as far as how general dinoflagellate as a term actually is. Obviously the amount that are pests in the home aquarium is much more limited but the point is it's a very general classification and the fact that Zooxanthellae are dinoflagellates means very little as this species is only loosely related to the pest types of dinoflagellates as we are only loosely related to cows.
 
#44 ·
Also... Who still has them after 18 months? Mine lasted two about 3-4 years ago and I haven't had an outbreak or bloom of Dinos since. So frankly I don't care. Good luck with your tank. I hope you don't have to start over. And if you do I hope you don't overstock it like you did before. :)
 
#46 ·
Because I proved you wrong on Dinoflagellate taxonomy does not mean you need to insult my abilities as a reef-keeper. Who cares who has better taxonomy knowledge?

Please don't compare your Dinoflagellate experience to mine as there are many different kinds of Dinoflagellates and some are far easier to get rid of than others.

Please let the next post be on-topic. :doh:
 
#49 ·
The fourth one was taken with the flash on. I'm only running blues to keep the algae growth down. I think with the last one you can see some of the algae but the rock the picture was taken of didn't really have much growth on it as I've been doing lots of manual removal.
 
#51 ·
i am pretty sure it was the alk and not the pH. the pH never got above 8.3 which is at the high end of ocean water pH, but within normal range. i have also had pH at 8.3 in the past without any issues. when i tested the water the Ca was at 400 and the alk was at 13. way out of whack, and that does not do well for hermatypic organisms.

since doing the water change the clam is still doing fine. i do not have any corals yet to see if they would also be doing fine, but i would expect so from the way the tank "looks". the Dino's have not seemed to have come back. i do have a firm dark brown algae on everything right now which is moderately difficult to remove. so far i will take this over the Dino's. i hope in the next week or so the coraline will start gaining traction if there are any spores left.

G~
 
#56 ·
I removed the corals and macroalgaes to a separate tank and started dosing alkalinity heavily. It seems to be working as all the dinoflagellates are white. On a side note I lost the sea urchin. I stopped dosing peroxide and the dinos went through a mini-bloom and I think the rapid accumulation of toxins got him. It's to bad had him for over a year and a half and really enjoyed watching him.
 
#57 ·
I'm really quite worried. After I killed 90% of the dinoflagellates with the alkalinity they've come back with renewed strength; only now my water is orange. It looks a lot like red tide but I don't know if that's possible. It won't let me upload pictures but my water is in fact orange.
 
#58 ·
A clownfish died. The water has cleared up but I'm still fairly worried, I don't want anything else to die. I've been running tons of activated carbon. Does anyone have any idea what's going on? I googled orange aquarium water saltwater and only a couple freshwater things showed up.
Pictures finally worked:
Food Liquid Ingredient Fluid Cuisine

Liquid Amber Fluid Food Ingredient

Natural material Metal Ingredient Glass Gas

The camera seemed to filter out some of the colour it was stronger than seen in the photos.
 
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