cupramine dosing advice needed

[beach bum]

Hi gang,

I need to share this little problem I'm having. My pair of pink skunk clowns died almost four weeks ago from what I believed was ich. I was only able to capture one to move to quarantine and failed to save either of them, but I wondered why they died so quickly. The new stressors in their life were a temp drop to 72 from 80, a tank move (but they had been in the new tank at least two weeks before any symjptoms appeared), and the addition of some mushroom rocks I recieved through mail order (which I did not dip in any way, just an acclimation then into the tank).

Fast forward three weeks, I left the quarantine up and running, but did not add any kind of chemicals. I found one of the fish I have really wanted, a fuzzy dwarf lion, so I bought him and after three days or so in the quarantine he exhibited white spots, so I thought the ich had affected him as well, but the next day signs of heavy panting, lethargy, and sudden rapid bursts of motion became the norm.

Also, and I regret this now, after three fishless weeks in the main tank I introduced a clarkki clown that had been quarantined in the dealers tank for a long period of time. And I admit I did it because the anemone looked to me like it needed a fish! Bad move, the clown is now exhibiting the same heavy breathing, rapid motion, etc, in addition to the white spot.

I have done lots of board searching, and believe I am dealing with oodinium, and will treat accordingly. I have added the first dose of Cupramine to the lion in the Q-tank - 10gal tank with about 8gal total water volume. So the initial dose was 16 drops. and will test tomorrow before adding the second dosage as recommended on the bottle.

For those interested I ran a battery of tests on the 40g, and ammonia, trite, trate, are all at 0. Ph is 8.2, temp 80. SG w/ the refractometer I recieved yesterday is at 1.0255.


Any and all suggestions are welcome, I had not planned on learning about diseases this way, so I am a reluctant student who needs help.

TIA, Chris

[Doug1]

Chris, cupramine is a nasty copper based chemical, and wouldn't be my choice. Maybe Jenn or Alice have some suggestions or thoughts on effective meds, but as I recall Lionfish are somewhat sensitive to copper so dose carefully FWIW, then again I may be having a senior moment, and disease is definatly not my forte'

[beach bum]

^^^bump


Thanks Doug, I am using it because it is copper. It has been recommended by the shop that sold me the lion. I have heard as well that is the best of the copper medications. Also, I have to do something NOW, can't wait any longer or this girl will be a goner.

[tdwyatt]

Originally posted by beach bum
after three fishless weeks in the main tank I introduced a clarkki clown that had been quarantined in the dealers tank for a long period of time.
...believe I am dealing with oodinium, and will treat accordingly

Hmmm.... Maybe this is a problem with ick or Velvet, but somehow I think there might be something else amiss... could be a contaminant in the water column, could be stray voltage (heh, out on a limb there) and although the sudden demise of your fish does sound likelike Oodinium, the life cycle of these dinoglagellates (yeah, they are parasitic algae) is relatively short without a host, and I think 3 weeks without some type of host would kinda make this a slim possibility, although not impossible. To confirm the diagnosis of Oodinium, you might want to dissect the victims, looking in particular at the gills: cut off the opiculum, and use a magnifying glass to look for small white dots about the size of a pin head on the gills themselves. If you have these, then most certainly you have had a Oodinium infestation. If not, then you need to look at the setup, possibly even starting all over again from scratch to eliminate any possibility of a contaminate in your water column. If it is a contaminant/toxin, carbon in large quantities will help, as will vigerous skimming. I would hate to loose a fish to disease, especially if it is recurrent and unidentified. I don't know about the effacacy of garlic for this rapid killer, but it may be of benefit. Might check with Horge or Chris or "Spanky" on this.

Good luck on this one...

[Rick O]

Originally posted by beach bum
And I admit I did it because the anemone looked to me like it needed a fish!

What does an anemone that needs a fish look like?

I've started testing the water from the LFS tanks whenever I purchase a fish. I found that the two stores I purchase from keep their S.G. much lower than my tank (theirs around 1.014, mine at 1.024). This is something that they never tell you. Because of this I feel that the fish needs an extra long acclimation period to prevent stress from the sudden change in S.G. Just a suggestion.

[JennM]

Wow 1.014 is low, even for LFS. Where I used to work it was 1.017 in the FO section, 1.023 in the reef.

Be careful with "extra long" acclimation, particularly if you're acclimating something bought online/MO that has been in a bag for an extended period of time. Once that bag is opened, a series of chemical reactions begins, involving PH and ammonia rapidly fluctuating, and that can be MORE harmful than a sudden change in specific gravity. The bag water can degrade very quickly. I have found that in most cases, acclimation over about 20 minutes is fine. If the specimen was robust and healthy, it can tolerate this (and we never buy anything that isn't robust and healthy, RIGHT?! )

I NEVER use copper at home. EVER. As was pointed out, lions don't tolerate it well, and IMO no fish really tolerates it well, but many can survive the treatment. It's very stressful.

As always, my first line of defense is a FW dip. I usually handle the fish with my hands (except in venomous species like the lion), to avoid injury by entaglement etc. However use a net with the lion.

I think Tom is on to something about voltage or some OTHER external factor running your fish down to the point of being sick. I have a friend that went through several fish, all his params were fine, we scratched our heads, and after a discussion about old powerheads, I suggested he test his water for voltage.....and he found enough to cause the stress that was making his animals sick.

If the problem is not voltage, it's something else. In general, healthy fish just don't "get sick"...something causes it by stressing them to the point of rendering them vulernable, so finding and correcting the cause is just as important as the symptoms right now.

Could also be that the q-tank is stressful too. Make sure there are lots of hidey holes and things, try to make it as 'homey' as possible.

I generally don't quarantine fish unless they became sick in my care. My method may be controversial, and I'm not suggesting that anybody should do (or not do) what I do, but here's my thinking....

Fish is caught (or captive raised), bagged, shipped, possibly bagged and shipped again, arrives at LFS and is quarantined briefly, moved to a sale display, bagged again and brought home. I can add ONE more stress by quaranting him AGAIN in a small makeshift home and just when he gets comfy, move him again....by making sure to choose a healthy purchase, I skip the home quarantine, and save a step. If the animal was quarantined at a reputable LFS, then obsevered for several days or more at the LFS, and was behaving normally, looked good and ate well, I have no reason to believe that he's sick. If I'm really worried about parasites, I can do a FW dip before introducing him to my display, but if I was worried about parasites, I'd probably have left the specimen in the LFS.

I'm not trying to revisit the quarantine debate....I realize that sometimes online purchases are iffy, or some don't have good LFS that quarantine, or once one gets to the point of having SO much money invested in existing livestock, that to take a chance adding a new fish poses a serious risk--those situations defintely warrant a SUITABLE quarantine tank.... I'm not in any of those situations. I have a small tank (55) with 6 fish, 3 of them I've had almost 2 years (since the tank was set up when we moved here), one is a year now, and the other two I bought in October and put in straight away.

Since I've digressed....back to Beach Bum's problem...I'd try the dip first and see if it helps. Then look at the main tank and try to identify stress factors....such as lots of activity in the tank area, voltage, heat/cold (fluctuations), test your PH morning before lights, noon, and night after lights have been on all day, and see if there is a fluctuation there. What's your alk?

Test the same things in the quarantine too, if the same fluctuations are happening, you might find your problem doesn't get better.

Jenn