Canister or not canister

[dark_stranger]

I am thinking about setting up a reef tank, although have no previous experiance & have been reading lots of stuff, but have now suffered information overload & as everyone has there own views & choices I am getting a little confused. I had deceided on a canister filtration setup as in a book it advised this was a good choice & also it could contain all filter media, but then on another forum they suggested not to use canisteres. Now im confused.

Please confuse me even more & post your comemnts & advise.
Thanks

[skeety]

What size tank were you planning on going with? Size will have a lot to do with what kind(s) of filtration are best.

[dark_stranger]

I am looking at either a 180 liters (40 gallons) or the better choice (but depends on budget) 260 liters (58 gallons).

[skeety]

Well, this is just MY opinion, but canisters are great.....for freshwater tanks.

I used to have freshwater, and the canister was excellent.

But now that I've gotten into saltwater, I've learned there's so much more to filtration than just catching all the food and wastes. Chemically, there's a LOT more to Saltwater filtration.

It's more biological than physical. Meaning chemically, the water must be filtered, not just physically removing particles.

It's for this reason, I recommend you do some research on Wet/Dry filtration and/or Sump filtration. (kind of the same thing).

This is where you let water overflow (in a chamber in your main tank), and it'll fall down (via a hose) into another smaller tank below. Where it will pass through various media/filtration and get pumped back up into the tank. The advantage here comes from having some media in the lower tank (sump tank) that is really good for bacteria growth. The more bacteria down there, the more biological filtration you have.

There's more to all this, but that's kind of the idea. Look into it. Little pricier, but by far the best way to go for anything 45 gallons or over (IMO).

[dark_stranger]

yer, of course I would prefer the bigger tank, but being a beginner I dont want to set up something to ambitious. Do canisters not offer all 3 types of filtration? That one of the reasons I chose this as it seemed like a more complete solution.

[skeety]

I belive it does offer some biological fitration as well. But I'm not sure it's enough for a reef tank. But I could be wrong.

Best to wait for better educated members to chime in.

hehehe

[dark_stranger]

Thanks for your help, I have just been reading some more & warming to the idea of a canister for mecanical/Chemical & biological filtration & live rock/sand for biological. Would this set up be surficcient?

Once I have sorted this out I will move on to my next questions

[dark_stranger]

Also, just reading reviews on canisters & some mention self-priming, what is priming? And what canisters do you guys use?

[wanareef]

For a FOWLR (fish only with live rock) the wet/dry is used here. For a reef tank not too many are using the wet/dry, but a combination of a refugium and sump that houses a skimmer and other means of filtration.

The LR that is in the tank- helps to break down the nitrates/trites as well as the sand bed to a point. More of a buffer than anything else. I use a canister filter if I want to run carbon only and only for several days at a time. Then it needs to be changed.

I have a refugium, sump that holds a skimmer, filter sock, heaters and the return. Also a diy phosban reactor for phosphates.

I would reconmend that you do some more reading and surfing the boards - seem like the information that you are getting is a little out dated.

[mg]

I agree with just using LR and a skimmer. LR for biological filtration and the skimmer to remove organics. Only use the canister to run carbon when needed. Having to clean out the media in the canister will be more trouble than its worth IMO.

[dark_stranger]

I have read about sumps as well, but having a little girl that currently likes to open every cupboard door in the house I was looking for an enclosed/hidden away solution. With regards to the canister, I was looking at the Eheim pro 2, but of course learning with every forum post/webpage viewed.

[drsyme]

If you plan ahead you can hide the sump. Get a predrilled tank, and put the sump underneath the display tank in the stand. Get child proof locks for the stand doors if you have to.

The problem with a canister is exactly what you want it for, it has 3 types of filter media. With a reef tank, you dont need mechanical filtration. Over time the mechanical filter gets filled with detritus and releases nutrients back into the water. The same thing with bioballs in a wet dry filter. You can change these frequently, but why add to the expense when there are better ways from the outset.

Use 1.0 to 1.75 lbs of LR per gallon of water. This should be enough for biologic filtration. You dont really need anything else as a biologic filter. You will need a protein skimmer to remove organics, you can put this in the sump, or hang it on the back of the main tank. But you will need a skimmer whether or not you have a sump. If you use a canister filter, run it empty, or you could use it to run carbon alone, no other filter.

So without a sump, you can have LR, and skimmer, with a canister if you want to run carbon, or empty to give you more water flow. If you use a sump, you can run the skimmer there or put some carbon in a sock in the sump. In that case a canister would be not be adding much.

[dark_stranger]

Originally Posted by drsyme

you dont need mechanical filtration. Over time the mechanical filter gets filled with detritus and releases nutrients back into the water. The same thing with bioballs in a wet dry filter. Use 1.0 to 1.75 lbs of LR per gallon of water. This should be enough for biologic filtration. You dont really need anything else as a biologic filter.

This is were I get confused as one source says one thing & another source say another. So do you not need mechanical filtration in a fish/reef tank? or if I did have mechanical filtration, would the tank benefit or not benefit from that extra level of filtration? If you dont have mechanical filtration, how are bigger particles removed? (sorry if this is a silly question, but I'm learning as I'm going along.

Originally Posted by drsyme

If you use a canister filter, run it empty, or you could use it to run carbon alone, no other filter.

So simply us the canister as a chemical filter? Would this be a direct conection to/from the tank or from the tank to the sump & then back into the tank?

Originally Posted by drsyme

So without a sump, you can have LR, and skimmer, with a canister if you want to run carbon, or empty to give you more water flow.

This sounds the option for me, but still early days. Therefore the live rock/sand would deal with the biological issues, the skimmer would deal with organic waste, etc and in theory the canister could deal with chemical issues & also additional water flow. Is this correct?

Originally Posted by drsyme

If you use a sump, you can run the skimmer there or put some carbon in a sock in the sump. In that case a canister would be not be adding much.

For the sump option, does it have to be a specific size in relation to the tank, if so what? also, silly question & i think i know what the answer is, but whats a sock? Therefore a sump would be feed from the tank, of which would simply contain carbon for chemical filtration & could the skimmer be placed here? also could you place the heater here?

Sorry about all the questions.

Stuart.

[drsyme]

Yes to all of your questions.

The skimmer removes the large molecules, that is why you dont need a mechanical filter in salt water. You dont have that option in fresh water because the characteristics of fresh water do not allow the foam to be as robust as it is in salt water.

Let me put this another way, think skimmer first, put your money there.

You are going to need flow in the main tank. I have a sump, the water drains from an overflow box via gravity into the sump, and then it is pumped back up to the main tank. This can be through a submerged pump in the sump, or an external pump if you have a drilled sump. In either case you get good flow. But I also have three powerheads on a wave maker.

Some people make a closed loop. This is a pump that just brings water in from the tank and pumps it back in with no filtration in between. Ideally it has two outputs and switches back and forth to create a wave like action. In your case, if you want a canister, you can use this as a "poor mans' " closed loop, and it would give some flow to the tank, but it would only have one supply and one return, so no wave action. But it gives you place to place carbon if you want.

Even using carbon is somewhat controversial. From my reading on this forum it's pluses outweigh the minuses so I run it 24/7. With a sump you can buy this filter bag with a drawstring from the LFS and put carbon in that and stick that in your sump. And you can put anything else in the sump, the skimmer, the heater. I also have my top off water dripping in there, I make my water changes in the sump, the water in the sump and tank are essentially one.

As far as the size of the sump, the bigger the better. The more volume in your entire system the more stable it will be.

[dark_stranger]

Thanks for all your help so far, and one final question at the moment. Can you have to much filtration? what you might say, "more is less"