Best Filter System for Reef Tank?

Jeff630 · 08-27-2006, 04:16 PM

Hello everyone, I'm new to this site, but have been impressed with the info I have seen. So I thought I would ask a question I have been struggling with. I'm am in the process of starting a new reef tank, and am unsure of what filtration to go with. The tank will be a standard 90 gallon, 48*18*24. My LFS has recommended two Emporer 400 pwer filters with a protien skimmer, but I have seen concerns posted about salt creep and other issues that may arise. There is a lot of talk about sump systems and these seem to be very popular, but I fear a tank full of water on my floor, lol. So, if I could ask for some brief pros and cons of the two systems, and what people would recommend, I would appreciate it. I am willing to spend the time to maintain things, and am also willing to spend the money for the best solution, so please don't let that alter your response. I truly want the best system for a reef, with fish, live rock, corals etc... Thanks for reading this.

Jeff

theplatypus · 08-27-2006, 04:19 PM

A good skimmer and live rock is all you need. A sump increase water volume and gives a place to hide equipment etc.. There really isn't any additional worry to having a sump. Its just a second tank. It can be anywhere as long as the pump is strong enough to move water.

Jeff630 · 08-27-2006, 04:30 PM

So are the power filters harmful, or just extra stuff which is not needed?

three90s&125sump · 08-27-2006, 04:33 PM

They can be harmful.

Fly Guy · 08-27-2006, 04:34 PM

They are just nitrate factories which need cleaned often and are unnecessary. I do however like to use a simple canister filter such as a phosban reactor ($30 or so)for running carbon every so often. It does a lot more effective job of polishing your water than simply putting a bag of the stuff in your flow somewhere......

You can also eliminate the need for asmall pump to run a canister filter by simply plumbing a T with a small ball valve off of your sump return line and stealing a couple hundred gph off of it to run the canister filter.........

motorslave · 08-27-2006, 04:40 PM

Skimmer will remove the disolved solids, not trap them in filter media so they can continue to polute the water. The bacteria on the LR will process everything else! Thats all you need along with some good flow to keep the detritus suspended so it can be grabbed by the skimmer.

Robert

JennM · 08-27-2006, 04:42 PM

Welcome to TRT, Jeff

Firstly - if you haven't purchased the tank yet - DON'T until you've read our take on things... best to do the research beforehand

I'm curious where your LFS would put the protein skimmer if using 2 Emperor 400s? You'd place one on each side of the center brace, but in my experience there's not enough room to hang a skimmer. Also, what brand of skimmer do they suggest?

IMO you are better off getting a reef-ready tank with a built-in overflow and a sump. This will be a bit more expensive, but in the long run you'll find it's money well spent.

Typically the tank will cost a bit more - but if you compare that with the cost of a standard tank, and an external overflow box, it's probably about the same - a good external overflow will run you $100 or more, and the cost of a tank with a built in overflow shouldn't be any more than $100 over the standard tank cost.

Filtration ... well a sump can be a fancy glass or acrylic sump - or it can be as simple as a Rubbermaid container - you choose. You don't *need* to spend hundreds on a wet/dry or fancy sump, however I like sumps made for reef tanks, because they are cleaner and easier to work within. Still - that's a variable that you can choose based on your budget and comfort level.

Good skimmer is a must. I like the Euroreef RS-135 best, but I also have been running a Kent Nautilus TE for the last 4 years on my 120. The skimmer is one place where it's not good to cut costs.

Return pump - Mag Drive 9.5 is good for that size of tank.

As for the hang on the back stuff - Emperor is a good filter, but I wouldn't use it on that size tank, and I wouldn't try to put two on with a skimmer. If the tank was smaller - 55-75 gallons, you *could* get away with one Emperor and a good skimmer like a CPR BakPak Dual Pak... but you'd likely want more powerheads for more flow - and you end up with a bunch of peripheral equipment hanging all over.

As for the flood concerns with a reef ready tank and a sump - well reef-ready (versus hang-on overflow box) is much more foolproof, and if you plumb your tank correctly and use an appropriate sized sump, the flood risk should be minimal to none.

Every hobbyist has spilled water... no matter what your configuation, some water will hit the floor, that I guarantee... however if your system is set up properly, the tank overflowing or draining should not be a concern.

HTH

Jenn

Jeff630 · 08-27-2006, 04:44 PM

Ok, so this kind of confirms what I thought all along, that the power filters are not the thing to do. So, I guess the next question is this; the tank I have is all glass, and not premade for a sump. What would be the best way to go about setting it up? I assume I need some sort of hang on tank collector, that then will feed either via siphon or pump into the sump below the tank? Then I need to get water back into the tank, by having returns go back over the edge to the other side, right? I hate to ask so many questions, but I really want to get this right, and keep the water as clear as possible.

JennM · 08-27-2006, 04:45 PM

I should add that using Emperor filters on reef tanks, it's best to remove the bio-wheels.

While I disagree that they are 'nitrate factories'... they don't create nitrate out of nowhere - they don't help the nitrate become nitrogen gas and be released into the air at the surface. Rather, let the live rock do its thing and be your biological filter - an Emperor minus the biowheels is a good mechanical/chemical filter, PROVIDED the filter cartridges are cleaned and replaced regularly.

Jenn

theplatypus · 08-27-2006, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Every hobbyist has spilled water... no matter what your configuation, some water will hit the floor, that I guarantee...

LOL
I've finally stopped worrying about spilling water on the floor. I'm just more prepared for cleaning up now.

Jeff630 · 08-27-2006, 04:49 PM

You guys are great, I appreciate the advice so far. Seems things are added, even as I type in a new question. JennM, your advice is well appreciated for sure. I have not purchased my tank yet, but had found the 90 gal glass in the LFS to be the right size for what I want. I think that with your suggestion, I will probably end up ordering a reef ready tank of the same size. Then add the sump, pumps and skimmer to that. If I understand correctly, I can place the skimmer within the sump to keep things clean up top, correct? Also, do the reef ready tanks come plumbed both for overflow and return, or just overflow? Thanks a ton.

JennM · 08-27-2006, 04:50 PM

LOL I came in to the shop Thursday morning, and there was water on the floor... seems that a small lavender tang tried to escape through the drain... and got stuck.

Tank overflowed til the sump ran dry, and the pump shut off.

Then while cleaning that up - the shop vac died.

I didn't have a good day on Thursday!

About 40 gallons on the floor - not too bad. Worst flood I've had in the shop was about 200 gallons. That was when I first opened... I had 2 systems flood that day.

You know it's going to be a bad day when you come to work and there's water flowing out the front AND back door....

Fortunately that doesn't happen anymore (knocking on wood here...) but the law of fish keeping is that the odds of a flood are directly proportional to the amount of tanks/gallons of water you keep

Jenn

zxcv123 · 08-27-2006, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff630

Ok, so this kind of confirms what I thought all along, that the power filters are not the thing to do. So, I guess the next question is this; the tank I have is all glass, and not premade for a sump. What would be the best way to go about setting it up? I assume I need some sort of hang on tank collector, that then will feed either via siphon or pump into the sump below the tank? Then I need to get water back into the tank, by having returns go back over the edge to the other side, right? I hate to ask so many questions, but I really want to get this right, and keep the water as clear as possible.

no power filters.
I would return the tank to the store and get another one. See if they have a all glass megaflow or an oceanic.
These tanks will have a hole drilled in the bottom and they are sorrounded by a box with slits at the top. Water drains into the box through those slots and goes straight down throught that hole, and through a pipe to you sump.
Read this article, and click the links at the bottom of the page toread parts II and III as well. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/index.php

JennM · 08-27-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff630

You guys are great, I appreciate the advice so far. Seems things are added, even as I type in a new question. JennM, your advice is well appreciated for sure. I have not purchased my tank yet, but had found the 90 gal glass in the LFS to be the right size for what I want. I think that with your suggestion, I will probably end up ordering a reef ready tank of the same size. Then add the sump, pumps and skimmer to that. If I understand correctly, I can place the skimmer within the sump to keep things clean up top, correct? Also, do the reef ready tanks come plumbed both for overflow and return, or just overflow? Thanks a ton.

Thanks for the kind words - you'll find this is a very friendly forum

You just saved about $250 by not buying the wrong tank config... so mods, send him a bill....

Just kidding...

To answer your question - yes the reef-ready tank has an overflow box inside the tank, with 2 holes drilled in the glass at the bottom of the tank. One hole serves as the drain and accommodates 1" plumbing, the return hole accommodates 3/4" plumbing.

If this image works - this is what it will look like....

Actually that image is of a corner overflow - those are still available but many/most hobbyists go with bit larger "megaflow" overflow on Oceanic and All-Glass brand tanks, which is placed on the back, not in the corner... usually on the left side of the tank if you're facing it.

And YES most of your peripheral stuff can go in the sump, the only exceptions being if you choose to add powerheads for extra flow, and the necessity of those will depend on what you want to keep.

If you intend to keep photosynthetic corals, lighting will be an issue you may wish to take up here too - but be prepared - you'll get a ton of different opinions on that

The simple answer about that is it depends what you wish to keep and once you narrow that down a bit you'll get some fairly consistent answers on that.

Jenn

Jeff630 · 08-27-2006, 05:09 PM

Ok, that's a good thing, because my LFS is an all-glass and oceanic dealer, and they can order any tank I desire. The just happened to have the 90 gal glass in the store, and I thought it looked very nice, size wise etc. But if there is one thing I found out early, it was to not purchase ANYTHING until you are absolutely sure it is the right product. So, with that said, I think tomorrow I will have them place an order for a reef ready 90 gal, probably from oceanic. I've read a lot about them, and they do seem to be user friendly, and aesthetic.

As for the lighting, I've seen that there are lots and lots of opinions on the subject, and after a great deal of research, I'm going to to go with a combined system of HQI/Compact Flourescent/Lunar Lights to help accomplish the end product I desire (vibrant corals, with a few brilliant fish and inverts)

I will likely purchas a reef made sump system, as I really don't want to have to make anything myself. I don't trust myself as a beginner, and think that others will do a much better job in this area, lol. So, the question now is, how big of a pump do I need for a setup of this size?