AquaC or berlin rea sea protein skimmers???

[bpaul_jpaul]

I am in the market for a new skimmer. I have a berlin xl protien skimmer and it seems to do the trick. Is the AquaC a much better skimmer then the berlin skimmers

anyone???

thanks
Brandon

[Shadetree]

I have a Berlin from my last tank and I just bought an AquaC EV 200. As I have not set up the Aqua C I can't compare it yet, but in my research the Aqua C was rated by hobbyists as one of the best skimmers on the market. In the company of Bullets, HSA, Eurofoamers and a few others. They are all supposed to be superior to the venturi triple pass Berlin. FWIW, the Aqua C seems very well built, looks good and appears to have excellent customer service. I think the Aqua C would be a definate upgrade on the Berlin.

Scott

[Peter_]

I hope I don't piss anyone off or get blacklisted on this message board (not that I haven't done that already) but forget the new skimmer and invest your money in the most powerful, natural, and elegant form of filtration that exist:

THE ALGAE-TURF SCRUBBER (ATS)

Protein Skimmers due a good job of removing dissolved organics, but it is an artificial form of filtration. Skimmers do not know the difference between good and bad, so along with removing dissolved organics they also remove trace elements and plankton (can you just imagine your poor plankton - Auntie Em, Auntie Em, it's a twister, it's a twister!).

In fact, if you do some research into natural reefs, you will find that virtually no skimming occurs on coral reefs. Skimming is confined to the ocean shore-line (and even there, it's effects are minimal).

I have a thriving 40-gallon aquarium that is filled with corals and fish (and, by the way, fed heavily). It has been in operation for over six years and in that time I have never used a skimmer nor done extensive water changes. (If you check my specifications thread, you will find that I do have a skimmer, but it is not used. It is in place for emergency situations - actually, I just put it there so people would stop asking, "Hey dude, where's your skimmer).

Ahh, but you say, how can this be.

The answer is simple: Algae or more specifically, turf-algae.

ATS's allow you to export nutrients from your system naturally with the use of turf-algae. Turf-algae is incredibly efficient (between 10 to 100 times more efficient than macro-algae) at removing nutrients by absorbing and locking them into their tissue as it grows.


ATS's remove:

1) Ammonia
2) Nitrite
3) Nitrate
4) Dissolved Organics
5) Heavy Metals
6) Phosphates


In addition, ATS's:

1) Oxygenate the water (thru photosynthesis)
2) Provide CO2-02 gas exchange
3) Stabilize PH


I simply harvest my scrubber once a week to remove all the nutrients from the tank (you can in-turn dry the harvested algae and feed it back to your fish).

If you think a filled skimmer cup is impressive, you should see the amount of algae harvested from my scrubber each week.

Furthermore, ATS's do not damage and/or remove plankton.

Scrubbers also respond faster to nutrient spikes than biological/skimmer systems. One look in the scrubber gives you instant feedback for your tank (in other words, if algae is busting right out the roof of your scrubber overnight, you can bet something died in your tank).

As mentioned, scrubbers can stablize your tank PH. This is achieved by lighting the scrubber at night when the main tank lights are off. This way, photosynthesis occurs 24 hours and day, and PH remains stable instead of falling during the dark period that occurs with other tanks.

No, I don't sell scrubbers, but I do advocate their use.

There is some negative reports of their use out there, but it is basically all untrue. Let's face it, there are just too many stores pushing products out there that will simply not let ATS's succeed in this industry.

However, you cannot go wrong if you mimic nature.

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I'm no scrub...I let my ATS do all the work!

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-12-2000).]

Peter the ATS and concept have been around for a while and you are right about the generally bad press they seem to get, as does Lng Sy and the miracle mud. However there are more people employing these system and variations all the time. I think as more reef keepers become educated on the dynamics of the reef ecotope more of these will come into play. There seems to be a few distinct styles of reefkeeping out there and this is one that seems to gain momentum. Witht he exchange of info on the net and the participation of various Marine biologists in the hobby people are learning more about the micro workings of the system as a whole and some are choosing more natural methods over more advanced($$$$)
technology and hardware.
If you can post pics of your system and help people understand whats up with it, it would be a great service. One of the basic precepts on this board is that there are many ways to keep a reef alive, we want to access info that will keep it thriving.
You can even talk about Sano on here, sepecially if you know whats in it

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I thought I was me, but we were wrong
email: geeflipr@internetcds.com

[Peter_]

Doug,

First of all, thanks for being so open minded about the different approaches to aquarium filtration. It's refreshing.

Most people respond to ATS comments by holding up a cross while simultaneously shouting "Be gone, Satan".

I agree, in reefkeeping, like everything else, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I used skimmers in the past and they do work well. That said, however, I do believe ATS's are the next big step in the evolution of aquarium filtration.

As you mentioned, they seem to be gaining some momentum as more and more people adopt there use. I suspect that in the years to come, ATS use will become more prevalent and the protein skimmer will go the way of the Dodo.

It takes time though, as existing technology is firmly entrenched in the minds of the people in this industry.

As mentioned, ATS's are facing major opposition from the powers that be, due to it's threating position in the hobby.


ATS's can literally replace:

1) Biological filtration devices
2) De-nitrater units
3) Protein Skimmers
4) Resins
5) Air Pumps

Upon realizing this, it's no wonder this device is not embraced by the industry.

All aquarium filtration can be handled solely by an ATS used in conjunction with some mechanical filtration.

You are right in pointing out that most of the other products, such as skimmers, are technology driven devices focused on water waste management. As such, they are inherently less complete or efficient than natural based systems.

There are so many aspects of nature which remain a mystery to us, and to think we could duplicate it with brute force technology is simply naive. The truth is these technology driven devices are somewhat effective while, at the same time, significantly counter productive.

You will be happy to know that I'm currently in the process of posting some pictures for you guys to see. I borrowed a digital camera from a friend (it's a Olympus D-320L), but I still need to get the appropriate software for it (not to mention, learn how the heck to interface all of this to the computer). Give me a little time to get my act together on this.

Don't worry, in no time you will be gazing at my algae-turf scrubber, while at the same time reciting Psalm 39!

Sano?

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I'm no scrub...I let my ATS do all the work!

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-13-2000).]

[Rick O]

Hi Peter,

I've been thinking about a refugium loaded with caulerpa. What do you think are the pros and cons of the refugium vs. an ATS? Also, do you harvest all of the algae at once?

Rick

[BHLOZEK]

GO ECOSYSTEM FILTER!!!!!!!!!!!


<{{{<

Sano is a group of additives that are wholistic in approach. Great claims are made by those who use it successfully while others call it snake oil as the makers wont divulge whats in it. It was the center of some epic flame wars on older big boards that spawned many others, including this one. The flame wars got really ugly and is the reason we have a no flame policy here. That kind of nonsense helps no one


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I thought I was me, but we were wrong
email: geeflipr@internetcds.com

[Peter_]

Rick,

Refugiums with macro-algae will work. That is the very basis of the natural eco-system magic mud method.

However, these systems are not nearly as efficient at removing nutrients as compared to ATS's. The difference is that ATS's cultivate algae turf which is some 10 to 100 times more efficient than macro-algae at removing contaminants.

Therefore, it you want to go with a macro-based system, the refugium must be fairly large.

I have a friend who uses this approach with success. He has a 125 gallon tank with a 50 gallon refugium filled with macro-algae. The water first passes thru some bio-balls which in turn create nitrates for the macro-algae to comsume. He just harvests the macro every week or so to remove nutrients.

As far as the ATS, I harvest all the algae at one time. However, you can also harvest the algae partially each time. Both methods works. What makes turf-algae so efficient is that it grows incredible fast. When you harvest the scrubber you remove the turf-algae down to it's roots. From there, it rapidly grows back to it's relatively short length and the process is repeat over again.

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I'm no scrub...I let my ATS do all the work!

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Alice]

Peter;

I, for one, appreciate your info on ATS and look forward to the pics of your system. When I was first doing research for this hobby, about three months before I set up my first tank, I was very interested in ATS. I got steered away from it by most on the online boards and the LFS's around here either 1) pooh-poohed it entirely or 2) had no idea what I was talking about. I opted for a skimmer and growing macro in a couter-lit sump. The macro turned out to be a real pain, going sexual or crashing more than once. I now just have a small amount in-sump in the 55 that I harvest and another clump or two in the nano at work that gets harvested on a regular basis. Oh, and both tanks are skimmerless. I haven't used the skimmer on the 55 in about 6-8 months and the nano never had one. Although I still do recomend that people have a skimmer for immature systems or for emergency situations.

You can definitely classify me in the "more biology, less technology crowd". My next project is a tank for my mantle and I've been leaning towards a tank with minimal live rock, a deep sand bed and planted sea grass. That may be on hold for a while now so maybe I have some time to reinvestigate the ATS system again.

Sorry, I do carry on at times......

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Reefkeeping is my life; I can't afford a hobby too!

[Peter_]

Alice,

By all means, please do carry-on, as you have a lot of interesting ideas to expound on.

Oh, and welcome to the "more nature and less technology" underground movement. We are a small but vocal group that hopes to spread the good word on alternate methods of aquarium filtration.

Just last week we had our first victory as we sacked the local fish store down the street. By the time it was all over and the smoke had cleared, every protein skimmer was reduced to a pile of rubbish, leaving the entire bunch of idiots behind the counter in a state of utter confusion and fear.

Look for our first public rally in your area in the months ahead.

When I looked into ATS's over six years ago, I, like you, was confronted by opposition. Back then, everybody looked at me as if I had two heads since they had no idea what I was talking about.

However, I was able to find a few sources that new about them and their benefits. After many long conversations on the topic, I decided to take the plunge.

It wasn't the theory behind the device which allured me (I was convinced from the start that this technique was logically sound), but it was the benefits over existing technology that really excited me.

I was so tired of the existing devices and methodologies of aquarium technology. I needed something different and the natural approach that an ATS offered was just that.

That was six years ago, and the rest, as they say, is history.

As for macro-algae, I echo your sentiments here too. I have a small refugium with macro-algae that is always an adventure. As you have experienced, it tends to go sexual and crash more often than your local bar-fly on heroin.

However, as you mention, macro-algae does work for nutrient export. The fact that you run a skimmerless tank with a small amount of macro-algae is impressive.

Anyway, if you are setting up a new tank I would highly recommend an ATS approach. If you are having success with a macro-algae system, an ATS system will be that much better.

If you are interested in ATS's or if you want a technical source on natural methods in reefkeeping, check out "Dynamic Aquaria" by Walter Adey.

It's the bible for eco-systems.

PS - Your planted sea grass approach has intrigued me. Could you provide some more information on it?

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I'm no scrub...I let my ATS do all the work!